Consider this

[cowman]

The $80 or $56 or whatever it is will be paid on every calf born in 2003, it is just a question of who will get the money? For the guy who sold his calves into that "very strong fall market" that the feedlots like to go on about, it will mean the feedlot will get the money.
Now lets look at that "strong fall market"? First it was erratic as hell! Prices all over the board. Discounted anything that even looked at the auctioneer funny!
I suspect the bottom line is the feedlots put steers into their lots for an average of $1 or less and heifers 10 to 15 cents less than that? Now with the firming up of the fat market in the last few weeks I suspect some of those "outrageously high priced calves" are pencilling out very nicely? Also consider the lower grain costs?
So now on top of a handy profit...here comes a government check! Not too bad a deal for owning them for 4 months?
The cow/calf guy should have got this money, plain and simple, the feedlots/packers got the $400 million.

[rsomer]

Exactly so.

[grassfarmer]

The one week that sticks in my mind was in early November- Satelite sale when Douglas Lake sold several hundred calves and their char steers at 600 lbs hit $146. These cattle will lose money however things pan out surely? I heard Neil Janhke sold his calves in September and averaged higher than 2002 - so some were up, some were down.

[max]

Maybe if the c/c man wanted the $80/hd or even a share of the $400 million then they should of had the guts to retain ownership of their calves instead of being "taken advantaged of" by the big bad bully feedlot operators. Enough whining already, the feedlots took the risk to own these cattle in an uncertain market place. Consider this, think how screwed you will get if our feedlots go broke and are bought up by American money. Bam 25%less for calves. Instead of crying about not getting any money(by the way you are,$300mil transition payments) take this crisis as an oppurtunity to make changes, streamline your operations to become more profitable. Take your negative whining energy and put it to something useful

[max]

Everyone is so quick to use the words Whining and Crying. Every one of us is simply trying to survive. Why is it that the lower we are on the food chain the easier it is for the guy up one step to put you down. I can't believe how feedlot folks like johnnyboy and max have become so much smarter than the lowly cow calf guys.

[cakadu]

max - I will say that you are correct on one thing. When the cow/calf guy started selling to the feedlots some 50 years ago or whenever that was exactly, that is when the cow/calf guy gave up the value in his calves.

Yes, it would be great to "break" the system as it now stands and have it become more of an even playing field, with all players making a reasonable return. Please note that I said reasonable return. That is all any of us want to make for our products.

The feedlot owners got plenty of help for the uncertain markets that they were faced with. It seems to me that the feedlot owners also had a choice in that they didn't have to fill up those lots if there was that much uncertainty.

Personally, I do believe that there will be a silver lining in all of this and I hope that it works more in favor of the cow/calf person than for those further up the chain.

I also seem to recall several weeks ago that the big feedlot owners were doing their fair share of "whining" as well and if they didn't get help in 3 to 6 weeks, they would be finished. Well, it seems as though most are still around. (Kind of reminds me when Pat Roberts said if he didn't get $1 million in donations, he would go to heaven - well he's still here too.)

Part of the reason for these rooms is to provide people with a place to express their views, opinions and thoughts. It is very tough out there in agriculture right now - a little compassion on all sides will go a long way.

[grassfarmer]

johnboy,
maybe it's not just the cow calf guys that are ignorant? In your above figures you imply paying $1.30 -$1.50 for 5 weight calves last fall, well maybe if you bought very badly on the dearest week you could have paid that. In the implied 5 months you have fed them they have only gained 200lbs - I guess they weren't even very good the expensive calves you bought? Only gaining 1.3lbs a day? that's costing you 77c/lb of gain. Or maybe your figures are like most of your contributions here.

[johnboy555]

if you do your math on backgrounding your probably very close........bout 1.3 to 1.5........goin to grass.....

[CattleAnnie]

To some of us it wasn't an option whether or not to retain our calves.

Guts had nothing to do with it, Max, it was called drought and finances.

I needed to sell the calves last fall in order to purchase more feed due to the drought we're experiencing in our area, and the banks were pounding at the door looking for their payments.

Believe me when I say that it was not a choice to send my potential replacement heifers down the road last fall, but I've got a family to feed, as well as a herd of cattle to overwinter.

Thanks for the insulting statement though, I'm sure it will go a long way to bridge the angst between the cow/calf and the feedlot people.

Mind you, the majority of both would have more sense than to think that either side is a bunch of "whiners", they would understand that as an industry, everybody needs to stick together, not point fingers.

Have a nice day.

[surespendalot]

Just be glad some money is coming towards Agriculture. It may not always go exactly the place that some of you think it should, but at least it is more dollars in our economy than what we had, and it will filter down to the rest of us.

We need the feedlots to stay in business and to keep paying for our calves just like the feedlot needs us to keep raising calves . They also are dependant on the sileage growers to keep growing feed, and the grain farmer to keep growing barley. None of us can exist without the others, unless each one of us wants to go it alone and raise the calf from conception to finished beef. Each of us excel in some particular aspect of our industry, few of us are experts in all areas. We should each put our efforts into what we do best and enjoy doing the most. (They are probably one and the same).

Lets stop all the name calling and finger pointing and try and be a little more tollerant of the others in our profession. If I was a politican and read some of the articles written here I'm afraid that my thoughts might be " We try our best to help the Agriculture industry, but all the farmers want to do is bicker and complain that someone else is getting a bigger slice of the cake than they are. Sounds almost like a kindergarten class with a few candies"

Lets be thankful that at least some outside money has come into the industry and lets hope that the people in government are able to make some policies and deals and agreements so that each of us is able to continue doing what we are good at and what we enjoy.

[max]

CattleAnnie I to sold all my replacement hiefers to pay bills. Maybe I didnt quite relay my point very well,but you did "everyone needs to stick together and not point fingers" is exactly it. One sector or the other doesn't need to feel slighted if they were not directly supported finacially but to look at the greater good and long term viablity of the industry. Yes there are going to be casualties because of BSE and no things willnot return to pre BSE times for sometime. We need to look forward,and create ways for cow/calf, backgrounders, finishers to become more viable and stable.

I am sorry if I insulted anyone but it does get tiresome listenning to people say that they should get this or that and not the other guy. I grain farm, commercial cows, purebred herd of cows, background 1 to 400 head of calves at any given time,and custom feed cows. I'm a guy with a family on a third generation farm doing what ever it take to keep this farm going so my kids can do the same if they want. I'm grateful for what I have and do and I wish more people would come across the same way instead of saying that the other guy got more than he deserved.

[kato]

We're in this a couple of ways too. Except it's cow/calf, and backgrounding.

I know that the calves we bought last fall are just barely coming out of a negative position now, and I mean just barely. Depending on what we want to consider in the way of expense, that is. If labour and use of machinery are charged to those calves, they are still way down in the hole.

We hung on to our calves last fall, as we usually sell them as short keeps. We did have to go to extraordinary lengths to keep them, though. I won't get into details, but it has been a long long year. I'll tell you, there were some sleepless nights!

As of today, we're glad we did keep them. We are prepared to finish them if need be, as well. Our attitude is nobody is going to get them for free, and if it means we go down in a blaze of glory..so be it! LOL

Bottom line is, any money coming in is good for everybody eventually. Pretty much everyone in this business is pretty good at spending it as quick as they get it.

There are a lot of empty feedlots out there that will need to be filled. Even if it's too late for the 2003 calves, if those boys make some good money this summer, they'll be hot on the market come fall.

[Shonravin]

Cowman!

Coming from a mixed operation but a very committed c/c operation. And always looking to make sense of anothers opinion could you please explain your reason why I should have got a bigger part of this latest Bandaid handout rather than where it is going. (We sold our calves in Dec/03)

[cowman]

It would seem the attitude of a lot of people is give it all to the packers/feeders? After all it will trickle down right?
We have evolved into an industry where in fact the tail wags the dog. The cattle industry was alive and well long before there were any big feedlots or for that matter any big packers? And it might just have to go back that way again, who knows?
I never sold my bred heifers, I kept my heifer calves, but I had the feed and the resources to do that...a lot of people didn't. The Canadian taxpayer is going to be on the hook for close to $1 billion dollars. The Alberta taxpayer close to $500 million. Don't you think they would be happier if the little guy saw some of that money? How many people do you know who sold their replacements and their calves because they just didn't have the feed or the money to buy it? Aren't those the very people who need a hand up? Do we really need to send Rick Pascal or Cor van Ray a few more million? Where does it end?

[rsomer]

I appreciate the comments to the effect that money in one sector of the beef industry benefits each sector of the beef industry. That is a nice sentiment, warm and fuzzy. Too bad it isn’t true.

It has been said many times that the Canadian beef industry will not be the same after BSE, yet many seem to still be view the industry as if it hasn’t changed. Well it has.

I would question whether the Canadian beef industry has represented a cohesive value chain where risks and profits were distributed equitably throughout in the last 15 years but that certainly is not case post BSE and there will never be a cohesive Canadian beef industry again.

In fact there soon won’t be a Canadian beef industry at all. The industry is rapidly moving towards a modified "North American" industry. I say modified because I see the feedlot and packing sectors operating within a North American context while the weaned calf/cull cow sector's competitiveness will be determined domestically within the context of their respective countries.

Yes, in past years if the Alberta feedlots made money on calves they almost invariably had to come back into the Alberta auctions the next fall and bid up on those weaned calves if for no more altruistic reason than to avoid income tax. That is no longer the case. The Alberta feedlots now have unrestricted access to American calves year round. Alberta and Canadian weaned calf producers no longer have a captive market for their calves in the form of the Alberta feedlot. The 33 Alberta feedlots that have a controlling 58% share of Alberta’s feeding industry will spend their BSE Recovery Program dollars in the U.S. unless the Canadian weaned calf producer sells them their calves cheaper.

Weaned calf producers will notice a distinct disconnect between their profitability and the profitability of the rest of the production chain by this fall. Canadian primary weaned calf producers were for the most part totally ignorant of the competitive advantage that was stripped away from when the feedlot sector gained unrestricted access to U.S. weaned calves after almost 40 years. In the very near future the Canadian weaned calf producer will need to retain ownership of his calves well past weaning time if he/she expects to capture any portion of the profitability to be found further down the production chain. Other wise the profitability of the Alberta feedlots just will not filter down to the primary producer level.