Fertilizer?

[cowman]

Occasionally, in my weaker moments, I will put some fertilizer on some tame pasture. Now not the last few years because it has been dry. I almost pulled the trigger last spring, as it looked promising, but I thought the prices were a wee bit too high(actually a hell of a lot too high!) so I didn't.
I often wonder if fertilizing really pays? I know it can work(economically) on hay(sometimes?) but I suspect it really doesn't pay on pasture unless it is an intense managed type of thing?
So I wonder what are peoples thoughts on fertilizing pasture? For it? Against it? And why?

[frustrated1]

Guess if you knew it would rain you could pour it on. If it doesn't rain more than to wash it in you may actually see it burn. You can sure see any fert misses in the cropland. Expect any tame pasture would be the same. On occasion we'll spread any left over on native pasture or if the local co. is cleaning up thier shed they'll let me have a couple spreaders. If the rain comes you definetly see greener. I've never actually tried to do any measuring to see if there's an economic benefit though. Do you have any local research stations testing? Even a local agronimist should have some data. I'd say if you generally get regular rains it will respond.

[grassfarmer]

I've grown up using fertiliser every year on every acre that you were physically able to haul a spreader over. With our more reliable moisture in Scotland it certainly boosted production substantially - but it is a lot cheaper in Europe too.
Since coming here I've used some every year on a percentage of the place - I think the difference between fert. and unfert. pasture using intensive management is actually greater here than in Scotland. You have vastly better soils and more heat here which respond well in my area if it gets washed in. Last year we probably doubled grass production on fertilised pasture even although we ran out of moisture by 1st July - the yield was there already. Presumably in a "normal" precipitation year spring spread fertiliser would only increase the unmanageable surge of grass in June using "no management" grazing. Even with intense management it would be a challenge to handle. For me it has penciled in compared to buying hay to feed cows - compared to my neighbours I have not started feeding until mid-November versus late September for the last two years. They don't use fertiliser or grass management.

[cowman]

Grassfarmer: I wonder if you have ever considered liquid fertilizer? I wonder if that might work better than dry? I ask because it almost seems if you don't get a timely rain, you basically lose your fertilizer? I've never tried liquid?
This is something that really bugs me!!! I get the fertilizer put on(at a great expense) and then it doesn't rain! Seems to me I just blew $4000 or $5000 for nothing! This whole fertilizer thing causes me a lot of stress!

[nerves]

Grassfarmer maybe you can help me out on this one.Our pastures are rotated and are clover alfalfa and orchard grass. lush I know we use pelleted fertilizer potash-phosphate-sulfer but am leary about nitrogen I am not to sure about how good nitrogen in the pellet form is to the organisms in the soil. How much is to much I know those legumes don"t need it but the orchard grass may, or does the legumes put enough in the soil themselves. We believe in high performance plants with deep roots maybe thats why we have high performance cows.

[Horse]

My experence with fert is I guess good to a point I dont think I ever lost money on it but I dont know if I ever made money beyond paying for it and mabey securing a hay supply as I had to go over those acres anyway so why not get 3 bails instead of 2 even if I paid 30$ for the fert.
On the pasture I think it helps to keep the grass longer and if you have as many rocks as I have then you dont want to break it up any more than you have to. I feel there is a better sod on the land that got fert every yr (100to 150# 34.0.0 per )I never kept good enough records but if I was realy trying to get a decent production now I would look at it pretty hard but I am just playing farmer now run a few horses and if I take a notion mabey a few calves now and then just whatever feels good .GOt a real deal on Lamas and alpacas a while ago no money but no expence either.

[grassfarmer]

Nerves, your legumes if they are present in sufficient quantities certainly will negate the need for applied N - this would be my goal down the line. Enough legumes, enough cows and frequent moves should build a great pasture. At the moment I am working with a lot of land that is run down and am using fertiliser to get the bulk of grass needed to keep enough cows on the land to kick start the nutrient cycling process.
You are right, straight N "burns up" the organic matter and kills the little bugs that live on the surface litter. As long as you don't put on more than 40lb of actual N per application it should do negligable damage.

[redcountry]

to grow grass for pastures nothing will beat lobster bodies or fish cleanings.
we get this free from the fish plants and spread on the pastures
Its real easy to see where you went in a couple of weeks, the grass is a darker green.
when there is more supply than we can spread we compost the extra.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, with regard to putting fertiliser on and then not getting it washed in - I wonder how much this is a real concern in Canada? They say Urea is very volatile and you can lose all of it in a short time if it doesn't get rain. The AN on the other hand is more stable probably good for 10-14 days before you loose a significant amount? I imagine this will depend on litter and carryover - if you have some and the prills get down out of the wind I doubt you will lose much. Bare pasture with the prills on top is another matter.
The concept of "losing" fertiliser if it isn't washed in within x number of days is unheard of in the UK - we generally all used NPK compounds like 25.5.5, 20.10.10 based on 34.0.0. We sometimes spread and waited 2 to 3 weeks before rain and I can't say I ever noticed getting any less response.

[nerves]

The light just came on today I have been trying to figure something out. First I will expain how we do things and why. We fertilize our pastures with 40% phospherous 50% potash and 10% sulfur. We apply it 100pounds per acre. Our pastures are alalfa 50% clover 30% and about 20% orchard grass. We plan our rotations so that 2 weeks before breeding the cows are on these feilds, and are usally done by the july 20. We turn the bulls out on june 10 or the 21 it all depends on the growth of the pasture. The reason we put on a good piece of phospherous is to help with conseption rates.(at least thats the idea) This year was June 10. Up to now we have had 25 calves out of 100, these calves have all been heifers,(just 2 bulls) and have had 3sets of twins. Last year we had 12 sets out of 130 cows. We have been fertilizing like this for 3 years, last year we had about 65% heifers and the rest bulls. I was over at the neighbors the other day he has been calving since the start of febuary most of his calves are bulls he does not fertilize he just turns the cows out on fesque type pastures and still has alot left to calve. Our cows will be pretty much done after the first cycle. (it has been like that for the past few years and I was giving credit to the alfalfa pasture). Now it just dawned on me that maybe this is the reason for so many twins. (we cull all twins calves)and maybe that is the reason we have so many heifer calves do you think that nature is saying the ground is fertile so lets throw lots of breeding stock? or do You think that it is a coincidence. Has any body else experinced this out of balance ratio, Because it used to be about 50 to 50 not that long ago. Do you think it could be the fertilizer combined with plants comsumed at breeding time or what else could it be. This has been a great mystery to me.

[grassfarmer]

Interesting picture Nerves, with pasture containing that much legume you won't need bagged N - but you already know that with the excellent conception rates and calving period you are getting. Most people would feed a high phos mineral to cows at breeding time to aid conception but you must be getting it into them through the pasture, maybe a more natural and better way? As for twins - that's a high percentage you are getting. Some people in Scotland were getting rates approaching 20% by feeding pot ale syrup (a whisky byproduct) at breeding time and I think it has a high phos. content so maybe there is something to it. I would love to run at 10% twins or even a bit higher - cows can manage them fine if you know they are carrying twins. I wish I could find someone here to ultrasound scan the cows - it is so much better than the manual exam but my vet won't believe me.(by scanning you know the twins every time)

[GrnAsMoss]

Nerves, this amount of twins seems unusual, what breed/cross of cattle do you calve out? Do your heifers preform as well as your cows with twins? This is very curious and worth looking into. I've always thought scientists should genetically cross cattle with gophers to get higher conception and birthing rates. If they can get spider web juice from goats milk anything's possible (biosteel).

[nerves]

Yes moss, they do make that 4 sets a hiefer had a set this morning. The breed is charolais and are not known to have a high ratio of twins.