Management Schools

[cowman]

nerves: What is a kneverland plow?

[nerves]

I need to spell check that"s Kverneland plow.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, you are not being very fair to your young neighbour, as you say "The actual fact...and everybody should know this...is that there is no "right"way! Never has been, never will be!"
Getting rid of his grain farming machinery is sound enough - this machinery after all is only one management tool to be used in the capture of solar energy - why have lots of machinery when animals can do it for you and appreciate instead of depreciate?
Beefbooster cattle can hardly be called scrubs. Take a look at some of the Heinz 57 herds in Central Alberta - at least beefboosters are designed to be functional with profitability built in.
Be fair - how many cow calf operations are in a rosy position financially just now?
"I've also noticed the toadflax has pretty well taken over those
"holistically" managed pastures and the county has been after him to clean it up!" Even with holistic management there is no guarantee of short term sucess, I don't know how good an operator this guy is - it depends also on the condition of the land he started with - there is a transitional period just like with organic farming - one thing for sure the County guys with their chemical spray solution to weeds don't know the answer as this action merely makes it worse.
Good luck to the young guy - you always say we need them yet they get pounced on and judged for daring to have a go, try something different and think the glass is half full instead of saying it's half empty.

[nerves]

Grassfarmer I don"t think it is the cowmans neighbor that is at fault, in my opinion it is the way this holoistic thing is presented it sort of a one shoe fits all. That is why I have a hard time find creditabilty in what they are saying.Yes there is some great ideas rotational grazing, swath grazing, water systems etc. This is my thoughts on it and you can tell me I am crazy if you want this is why I enjoy these chat lines. In another thread you were telling cowman about the great grasslands of the praires and that is what they were and maybe should have been left as such. But here we are trying to grow grass on high output pastures that were never meant to sustain grass. The land I am talking about is heavy clays that used to be treed with poplar and spruce, this type of forest had deep roots that broke up the clay letting in any rain fall and giving excellnt subsoil moisture.It also gave a canopy that kept the ground cool with less water evaporation. In a sence a type of rain forest. Now along comes man with his dozer and clears the trees and grows grass. Grass with narrow leaves and lacking the ability to drive in roots many feet into the ground. So in time the ground gets hard and slowly loses the ability to absorbe the water even through rotational grazing, water does absorb better, but nothing like it did when it had a forest.Thease are high performance soil types that need big leafed plants and maybe a little fertilizer to drive a healthy set of roots into the ground the deeper the better, Much the same as the trees they are replacing. They also have a thick lush canopy to hold the moisture.These are legumes they produce well because they belong on this soil. Now with this holistic thing I hear them talk about legumes once in a while, the main push is to grow grass on all soils the one shoe fits all thing it is no wonder that some people fail this land was never meant to grow grass. Don"t get me wrong they have some great ideas I just don"t see them working everywhere for everybody for that reason. Our pastures are full of legumes and our crop land is swathgrazed instead of growing thin leafed grass plants, and a little is combined for seed or to finish off calves. I think we have found a balance somewere in between.This land has also become more drought tolerable.

[cakadu]

From what I understand about holistic management it is far more than just growing grass, it takes a look at the total picture in terms of what you are choosing to do with the land, your life etc. etc.

Any decision that we make has consequences, some good some bad and some unforseen -- what holistic management does is try to get you to look at the total picture when making decisions.

As has been stated, it is about letting the land do what it should be doing and not forcing it to do something that it shouldn't. Some lands can be utilized for high input grain production and other land should be left to be grass because that is what it can support the best. Some land should never have been taken out of grass production in the first place - it is only the years when grain prices are perceived to be higher that it is ploughed up and seeded to a crop.

Grassfarmer is correct when he says that all the spraying does is look at symptoms and not necessarily the problem. Weeds become a problem in grasslands when there is nothing to compete with them. Pastures are continuously grazed and over grazed, with no adequate rest periods and that is when the weeds take hold. Wild strawberry abounds, as does yarrow and the toadflax was not taken care of before it became a serious problem.

As women can attest to, there is no such thing as "one size fits all" pantyhose and there is no one formula that will work for every farm. You need to take what will work or you think will work and apply it to your farming operation.

Positive change can take a while to see in pastures, but when it does start to take place, it is amazing what the land will do!

[cswilson]

VIVE LA DIFFERANCE!!!!!!!!!! I was holistic for years but I thought I was just cheap-you iron junkies don't lick your lips too much waiting for your holistic neighbor to go broke cause it might take him awhile.As far as good land not suited for grass-we ranch on some rewal good thick black soil up here-the funny thing was it was grass before the sttlers came and stopped the big fires-then it went back to bush till it was cleared again. Everyone should read Savory's book-you don't have to change but it might make you think.

[grassfarmer]

One think I did understand reading "holistic management resources" was that it was definately not selling one system eg rotational grazing - it tries to create a new way of thinking and deciding what steps to take on your land to achieve whatever your goals are. It is a framework for decision making not an instruction book on management. I'm sorry but I've yet to be convinced there is land that is "too good to grow grass" - nobody says you can't have improved grass species if that is what works for you, is sustainable and is profitable.

[cakadu]

This was all grassland at one time and much of it should have stayed that way. The better the soil nutrients the better the grass will grow, there is no doubt about that. Ensuring that you have more than adequate organic matter in the soil is very important.

Grass can be grown just about anywhere, it may very well be that it is grain that shouldn't be grown in some areas because the return for growing it just isn't there. We keep pouring on more and more chemicals to curtail the soil depletion and this is something that just isn't sustainable over the long term.

Maybe holistic management isn't the be all and end all, but there are concepts there that make a lot of sense, so even reading the book is worthwhile. For some reason we tend to think things are an all or nothing proposition - you take what works for you and leave the rest.

[nerves]

I'm not saying the land is to good for grass. I'm saying the grass is not suited for heavy clays. It will definitely grow grass but over long periods of time the soil changes and becomes hard. I place alot of value on subsurface moisture without it the organisms that make the soils breath die. You need deep rooted plants to keep the water cycle moving. You guys have made some very valid points. It does make you think it took me 7 years to figure out what works best on our soils. We don"t spray any chemicals to kill grass or insects. We are not organic because we do believe in fertilizers. To be honest are phospherous and calcium not a large part of our bodies make up.

[grassfarmer]

I don't know what "organic" farming is considered to be in Canada but I hated the use of the term in Europe. There you are "organic" if you use no pesticides or fertiliser - but the management practises used on many of these farms is appalling. It is often very poor - or zero management
/abandonment which to my mind is a worse system than using "holistic management" or "management intensive grazing" utilising limited amounts of fertiliser. Unfortunately the consumers knew what this type of organic farming was and would only buy stuff produced to these standards. Many of the "regular" farmers there using old fashioned methods and with good stockmanship / husbandry skills were deemed to be poorer quality producers.