Management Schools

[cswilson]

VIVE LA DIFFERANCE!!!!!!!!!! I was holistic for years but I thought I was just cheap-you iron junkies don't lick your lips too much waiting for your holistic neighbor to go broke cause it might take him awhile.As far as good land not suited for grass-we ranch on some rewal good thick black soil up here-the funny thing was it was grass before the sttlers came and stopped the big fires-then it went back to bush till it was cleared again. Everyone should read Savory's book-you don't have to change but it might make you think.

[grassfarmer]

One think I did understand reading "holistic management resources" was that it was definately not selling one system eg rotational grazing - it tries to create a new way of thinking and deciding what steps to take on your land to achieve whatever your goals are. It is a framework for decision making not an instruction book on management. I'm sorry but I've yet to be convinced there is land that is "too good to grow grass" - nobody says you can't have improved grass species if that is what works for you, is sustainable and is profitable.

[cakadu]

This was all grassland at one time and much of it should have stayed that way. The better the soil nutrients the better the grass will grow, there is no doubt about that. Ensuring that you have more than adequate organic matter in the soil is very important.

Grass can be grown just about anywhere, it may very well be that it is grain that shouldn't be grown in some areas because the return for growing it just isn't there. We keep pouring on more and more chemicals to curtail the soil depletion and this is something that just isn't sustainable over the long term.

Maybe holistic management isn't the be all and end all, but there are concepts there that make a lot of sense, so even reading the book is worthwhile. For some reason we tend to think things are an all or nothing proposition - you take what works for you and leave the rest.

[nerves]

I'm not saying the land is to good for grass. I'm saying the grass is not suited for heavy clays. It will definitely grow grass but over long periods of time the soil changes and becomes hard. I place alot of value on subsurface moisture without it the organisms that make the soils breath die. You need deep rooted plants to keep the water cycle moving. You guys have made some very valid points. It does make you think it took me 7 years to figure out what works best on our soils. We don"t spray any chemicals to kill grass or insects. We are not organic because we do believe in fertilizers. To be honest are phospherous and calcium not a large part of our bodies make up.

[grassfarmer]

I don't know what "organic" farming is considered to be in Canada but I hated the use of the term in Europe. There you are "organic" if you use no pesticides or fertiliser - but the management practises used on many of these farms is appalling. It is often very poor - or zero management
/abandonment which to my mind is a worse system than using "holistic management" or "management intensive grazing" utilising limited amounts of fertiliser. Unfortunately the consumers knew what this type of organic farming was and would only buy stuff produced to these standards. Many of the "regular" farmers there using old fashioned methods and with good stockmanship / husbandry skills were deemed to be poorer quality producers.

[nerves]

That is what scares me grassfarmer there was a show on the dish couple of nights ago, on Country Canada a segment called the food chain. They were discusing grocery stores and were about how they marketed. The grocery professonal was asked about were the food industry was going. He answer was the consumer wants more organic and less processed food. This goes well for us people selling beef, but this organic thing really worries me, it all sounds nice on paper, but in reality in my mind it is wreck waiting to happen.

[PureCountry]

Organic farming I think will hit it's obstacles just like anything else. Herefords were great guns for decades until some quality issues arose due to everyone trying to sell something Hereford. The same thing is true of the Angus breed right now. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry that has a few papered cows is putting on a bull sale. Quantity has greatly overwhelmed quality.
For the organic trend, I believe the same phase will hit. If the day comes that a large percentage of farms and ranches are certified organic, there will always be those who try to capitalize on the good fortune of a clever marketing plan, by reaping the profit without sowing any seed.

[grassfarmer]

Organic doesn't worry me too much as, by implication, it is a dearer product they are selling. As I am planning on getting on the "grassfed, healthy beef" band wagon I realise that this is also a higher priced,niche market which reduces the number of consumers willing to pay for it. Organic farming will never replace conventional farming as the consumers who are going out and specifying which type of food they want to eat are the wealthier ones and they are in the minority. I'll let Cargill feed the majority and try to get the more discerning customers to buy my beef!

[cowman]

Isn't grain a grass? And consider that you only take the seed and return the rest of the plant to the soil. Now I would suggest that might be very sustainable?
I'm not knocking my young neighbor...he's trying something new and different. I would suggest though that he shouldn't have swallowed the whole "holistic management" thing hook,line and sinker? Maybe he should have taken it a little slower...oh well I guess time will tell?
Grassfarmer: While understanding the concept that healthy land makes for a healthy grass stand that can push out a lot of weeds, there are some weeds that can teach grass a few things about survival? Toadflax, tansy and chamomile can flourish in just about any environment. Which is why they are noxious weeds? And it is the law that you have to control them. And you do need chemicals or cultivation to control them? Mowing won't work and neither will grazing. Chemical treatment is the cheapest and most effective way of control. And no matter what your philosophy might be in life regarding chemicals, if you don't control them the municipality will come in and control them under the Pest Control Act and that will involve a spray and you will pay dearly for it.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, Being new here I'm not too familier with the specific weeds you mention. We had toxic weeds in Scotland too - ragwort(a yellow flowering weed that is poisonous to cattle)we controlled by hand pulling which is slow, hard work but effective. We also had too many Scots thistles which we controlled by cutting out with a spade. Most of the neighbours thought we were crazy as it took a while to cover several hundred acres - but over the years we got on top of the problem. The neighbours let them run rife until the fields were so bad they sprayed the whole field. Some guys drove around on quad bikes with a hand held sprayer - why make things so complicated and expensive when you could walk around and cut them with a spade?

[cowman]

Well common tansy is in fact tansy ragwort so probably the same plant. I guess pulling them or cutting them would be effective but fairly complicated with a major infestation that needs to be controlled right now? One other weed I forgot to mention that is slowly getting established in Alberta is leafy spurge...a very tough competitor.
If you get these weeds you don't have the luxury of time. They need to be dealt with right now. And they are spread very easily...all it takes is a hay truck travelling down the road.