Hill Breed question?

[grassfarmer]

Magpie Salers certainly have a reputation for easy calving that's for sure. Why do people in this country get so excited about calving cows - you hear lots of talk of calf pullers and
c-sections. Surely with todays genetic information and management practices mature cows (had more than 1 calf) should calve unassisted. I only expect to help malpresentations or twins - last year I had 1 of each to assist and the other 97 cows calved themselves. I have a neighbour who gets all excited with close circuit TV, winter calving, he must assist 50-60% of his mature cows and takes lots to the vet. Talk about making life difficult - no wonder guys complain about the cattle job!

[PureCountry]

Grassfarmer, I assist as many calves at my neighbour's place as I do on my own. I don't know why, other than they breed very big framed bulls to very big framed cows strictly for the purpose of pushing weaning weights to the max. They have a half dozen c-sections per year, and assist about 30% on 200 head. Of course many factors play into calving difficulties, but I can't understand why they have to push their luck, when it just isn't worth it once you factor in man-hours per cow. I see it like this - getting a calf from conception to consumer is a damn big job, so why not make it as easy as possible? It's never easy, but it can sure as Hell be more enjoyable and less stressful.

[cowman]

I found an old beef book that sort of got me thinking about these cattle. It is called "Profitable Beef Production" by a M. Mcg. Cooper and M.B. Willis. I believe I bought it years ago from an ad in the Western Producer. Anyway it is a UK book and they talk fairly extensively about the "Hill breeds". They seem to be particulary high on the Irish Blue-Gray cow, as a mother cow on marginal land. This cow is a Galloway/white shorthorn cross.
They also talk a lot about the Welsh Black and the Luing.
It is a very interesting book. Put out by Farming Press Limited, Wharfedale Road, Ipswich, Suffolk.

[grassfarmer]

The blue-grey cow you mention Cowman is the real blue-grey not the "Irish" blue-grey but if it's an English book I can believe they would make that mistake! Galloway cows bred to the Whitebred (or Cumberland)shorthorn were the backbone of the cow herd on the Scottish/English border for many years. An excellent F1 cross that worked beautifully, was easy care, productive and long lasting. Sadly they are now very rare due mainly to the decline in numbers and size of the Galloway breed from the 1960s on. Don't get me wrong there are some very good Galloway herds there but the breed is at a fraction of it's former numbers.
Luing cows have actually replaced a lot of the big bluegrey herds in the Borders.

[redcountry]

no mention of the Tarentaise breed here, a french mountain cow,
A small cow 1100lbs, tucked up udder a wonderful mother,crossed to a charolis will finish as good a calf as any.
I have noticed a strange trait, most cows will feed any calf that wants a drink, more so if the calf is young.

[redcountry]

Right on redcountry...... So why do we have to sell these traits while the Angus rule the continent. Cattle are cattle, and numbers should reflect that. Only shows that humans with our lemer like ways rule the cattle industry.

[grassfarmer]

How much longer will the Angus rule the continent though? I see them on a fast train to disaster with many of the breeders using single trait selection -"performance bulls". All these Angus bulls that are 2000lb at under two years old will breed a generation of high maintenence cows and get into calving difficulties. At some point they will cease to be able to trade on their historical values of easy keep, maternal cows with low birthweights.

Fashion plays a big part but also despite all the performance figures you provide most farmers will still pick the biggest bull in the pen or the biggest replacement heifers from the sale barn on the grounds that they will turn in the biggest calves.

[cswilson]

Well the queen of the cattle business is still a good thick black baldie cow you can breed her to a billygoat and still get a saleable calf. The problem with the lesser known breeds (we run south devons also) is a shortage of quality breeding stock. Its hard to find a large herd of several of the breeds mentioned here to select bulls from-when I'm looking for Angus bulls to A.I. with or buy I literally have thousands to pick from-the future of most of the smaller number breeds is niche marketing I feel-and don't kid yourself there are still lots of good using black angus cattle out there to pick from.

[cswilson]

I don't beleive anyone with lesser numbered breeds are kidding themselves or any one else, however saying that one breed is better just because of numbers is kidding yourself cswilson.
Yes the niche market is the way for us "for now";;;; until enough people recognize the simply EQUAL quality that most other breeds have to Angus. Numbers, and money are the only two reasons that Angus cattle rule the industry. America has MADE these massive numbers from as small a genetic base as most other breeds. Check out the number of Angus cattle in the UK compared to Welsh Black, or South Devon, or Shorthorn. Lots of Genetics from all of these, and more breeds, around the world. If more commercial cattlemen would show an interest and offer to use more of these bulls, purebred breeders would access these genetics and offer more "quality genetics" in years ahead.
Saying that there are not enough quality genetics simply means you have not been bothered to look. Easier to use the mainstream, and yes VERY GOOD Angus genetics.

[cswilson]

I never did say one breed was better because of numbers I said exactly that it was easier to find good genetics in the Angus breed just because there are more to pick from as for not taking the time to look. Our current South Devon herd bull was calved in Kansas so I'm not afraid to go looking. In the current situation in the cattle business not many commercial cattleman have the will or fortitude to experiment breed wise. The marketing and support resources that the established breeds can marshall are enormous-just take a look at the American Angus Association's financial statement. I'll stand by my statement that 'niche' marketing is the way to go-or promote your place in a crossbreeding program with one of the big four breeds(Angus,Hereford,Simmental,Charolais). Let me put it this way I've order bought cattle-when you phone most feedlots with breeds that aren't mainstream they typically drop their bid price to cover themselves-I'm not saying it's right or fair but that's the way it is.