Hill Breed question?

[redcountry]

Right on redcountry...... So why do we have to sell these traits while the Angus rule the continent. Cattle are cattle, and numbers should reflect that. Only shows that humans with our lemer like ways rule the cattle industry.

[grassfarmer]

How much longer will the Angus rule the continent though? I see them on a fast train to disaster with many of the breeders using single trait selection -"performance bulls". All these Angus bulls that are 2000lb at under two years old will breed a generation of high maintenence cows and get into calving difficulties. At some point they will cease to be able to trade on their historical values of easy keep, maternal cows with low birthweights.

Fashion plays a big part but also despite all the performance figures you provide most farmers will still pick the biggest bull in the pen or the biggest replacement heifers from the sale barn on the grounds that they will turn in the biggest calves.

[cswilson]

Well the queen of the cattle business is still a good thick black baldie cow you can breed her to a billygoat and still get a saleable calf. The problem with the lesser known breeds (we run south devons also) is a shortage of quality breeding stock. Its hard to find a large herd of several of the breeds mentioned here to select bulls from-when I'm looking for Angus bulls to A.I. with or buy I literally have thousands to pick from-the future of most of the smaller number breeds is niche marketing I feel-and don't kid yourself there are still lots of good using black angus cattle out there to pick from.

[cswilson]

I don't beleive anyone with lesser numbered breeds are kidding themselves or any one else, however saying that one breed is better just because of numbers is kidding yourself cswilson.
Yes the niche market is the way for us "for now";;;; until enough people recognize the simply EQUAL quality that most other breeds have to Angus. Numbers, and money are the only two reasons that Angus cattle rule the industry. America has MADE these massive numbers from as small a genetic base as most other breeds. Check out the number of Angus cattle in the UK compared to Welsh Black, or South Devon, or Shorthorn. Lots of Genetics from all of these, and more breeds, around the world. If more commercial cattlemen would show an interest and offer to use more of these bulls, purebred breeders would access these genetics and offer more "quality genetics" in years ahead.
Saying that there are not enough quality genetics simply means you have not been bothered to look. Easier to use the mainstream, and yes VERY GOOD Angus genetics.

[cswilson]

I never did say one breed was better because of numbers I said exactly that it was easier to find good genetics in the Angus breed just because there are more to pick from as for not taking the time to look. Our current South Devon herd bull was calved in Kansas so I'm not afraid to go looking. In the current situation in the cattle business not many commercial cattleman have the will or fortitude to experiment breed wise. The marketing and support resources that the established breeds can marshall are enormous-just take a look at the American Angus Association's financial statement. I'll stand by my statement that 'niche' marketing is the way to go-or promote your place in a crossbreeding program with one of the big four breeds(Angus,Hereford,Simmental,Charolais). Let me put it this way I've order bought cattle-when you phone most feedlots with breeds that aren't mainstream they typically drop their bid price to cover themselves-I'm not saying it's right or fair but that's the way it is.

[cswilson]

Sorry if I struck a nerve cswilson but I have a problem when people use a statement like " The problem with lesser known breeds is the shortage of quality breeding stock". Nice to know that you are brave enough to try the South Devons, and I'll bet you have a little extra sales ability when you need to market those calves to your order buyers.

What I would like to know is "what is the definition of quality when you go to choose from the large number of Angus bulls out there? EPD's, weaning weight, yearling weight, rib eye area per hundred pounds, frame size, feet and legs,or how about feed conversion, or net feed efficiency.
Once again I would like to suggest it is simply a matter of numbers and the pressure by your order buyers. I guess your statement about choice from large numbers is also viable, however this statement says nothing about quality to me.

I would also suggest that a larger percentage of "what I would call" quality bulls are castrated among breeds like South Devon, Galloway, or the other lesser numbered breeds than our industry dominating Angus.
I cannot say enough about being breed neutral. I think every breed has it's place. But continuing to believe that Angus rule because of quality is simply obserd.

[PureCountry]

I would like to make one point about "Hill Breeds". Would everyone agree that we are a long gosh-darn way North of the Equator?

Okay, so if winter feeding due to cold weather makes up 60-70% of the cost of production for every calf we raise, why do we keep using slick-haired breeds?

Some of the most productive and efficient cows I have are an F1 Angus X Tarentaise, BUT, as much as I love them and have bragged them up to everyone I meet, I finally realized that the daughters I was keeping didn't have nearly the hair coat of my Angus X Shorthorn heifers. Tarentaise are a slicker-haired breed, as well as South Devon, Red Devon, Gelbvieh, and many of the other breeds I've had experience with. So, don't anyone come back with,"It all depends what works best for you", because nobody can deny that geographically we are all in the same boat when it comes to climate. And when the heavy-haired breeds have just as much to offer in every other trait that a cattleman can select for, why do we not pay closer attention?

I know what Tarentaise milk like, I know what Devons grade like, I know what Gelbviehs perform like, and I know what Angus sell like. I could go on and on, but I'll say this: I'd like to talk to anyone who thinks they can prove their case for a breed that can out-do the Galloways. My new slogan for selling replacement heifers is officially: REDEFINING THE RANGE COW.

[cswilson]

When I meant a shortage of quality breeding stock a mean a SHORTAGE OF QUALITY BREEDING STOCK- when I get an order to buy 30 half brothers for someone there simply aren't that many in the smaller breeds to chose from. I'm not starting a breed argument here I'm just stating a fact-as for our south devon calves they are all finished and sold through a carcass alliance on a grid. But I will tell you this-if you breeders of lesser known breeds want to expand your market you won't make it by badmouthing established breeds just keep accentuating your positives. As for my selection criteria for our own bulls we buy is a whole bunch of diffeent things- E.P.D wise we like <breed average birth, breed ave. or a bit more for milk not much more, slightly above breed average for growth. Now here's the kicker that eliminates tons of bulls-perfect feet and legs-NOT FAT-off an older cow with a perfect udder. If carcass data available want 5.0 marbling at 5.0mm backfat. I use mostly homeraised bulls but if I find a bull I like I buy him cause I don't like very many. As for haircoat boy thats a can of worms I've got some slicker haired cows winter like seals and some mossyhaired cows shiver and shake and trust me I run them tough.

[cswilson]

When I meant a shortage of quality breeding stock a mean a SHORTAGE OF QUALITY BREEDING STOCK- when I get an order to buy 30 half brothers for someone there simply aren't that many in the smaller breeds to chose from. I'm not starting a breed argument here I'm just stating a fact-as for our south devon calves they are all finished and sold through a carcass alliance on a grid. But I will tell you this-if you breeders of lesser known breeds want to expand your market you won't make it by badmouthing established breeds just keep accentuating your positives. As for my selection criteria for our own bulls we buy is a whole bunch of diffeent things- E.P.D wise we like <breed average birth, breed ave. or a bit more for milk not much more, slightly above breed average for growth. Now here's the kicker that eliminates tons of bulls-perfect feet and legs-NOT FAT-off an older cow with a perfect udder. If carcass data available want 5.0 marbling at 5.0mm backfat. I use mostly homeraised bulls but if I find a bull I like I buy him cause I don't like very many. As for haircoat boy thats a can of worms I've got some slicker haired cows winter like seals and some mossyhaired cows shiver and shake and trust me I run them tough.

[cswilson]

Now who is putting words in the other's mouth. I am not bad mouthing Angus cattle any more than you want to win the arguement over your quality statement. I give wilson.

[grassfarmer]

And let's be realistic how many Canadian ranchers buy 30 bulls in a year let alone wanting 30 same breed, half brothers?

[cakadu]

I think the most important point made here was to find a breed that works for you, your land, your situation and use it to your best advantage. Many people like to go the tried and true, while others find appealing traits in the lesser known breeds that they can use to try and gain profit.

There has been a reason that the livestock sectors have had problems moving ahead and it is BREED PRIDE. At the end of the day we are all trying to sell meat that the consumer wants to buy and is willing to pay for. How we get to those standards and what breeding stock we use is another matter. But does it really matter if you are giving your customer what they are asking for?

Once that skin comes off and it's hanging on the rail, can one tell an Angus from a Galloway from a Shorthorn just looking at them on the hook?

Unless and until we can get past this barrier and begin to work together, we will maintain the status quo. I think that people are really beginning to see that there is more out there than the way we have been doing it for the past 50 years.

I'll give you an example using lamb. We raise a breed known as Barbados Black Belly, which are not well received in the commercial sheep industry. That is fine with us because at the end of the day, through our direct marketing, we put more of the money into our pockets. In comparing the loin chop - which is the most saleable piece of the lamb next to the rack - ours are comparable to the commerical breeds, yet our maintenance and feed costs are far lower. The Barbados is a small to medium carcass, but on a comparative basis, the most expensive piece grades out just as good or better than the commercial breeds and that is coming from the folks that do lamb in a big way. There are just so many things that are going for the breed that we will never switch to the woolled breeds. Having said that though, others find their breeds to their liking and we don't have a problem with it at all. It's funny though, how the other breeders don't have too much good to say about the lesser breeds.

What one needs to be concerned with is how what you are doing improves the bottom line - profit before production.

Cheers and Happy Easter!

[cswilson]

Grassfarmer I've had orders for more than that and I know lots that would buy groups of 10-20 if they were available. Purebred breeders of all breeds are guilty to some extent of breeding to the flavour of the year. There is discussion about linebreeding for consistancy-I have a buddy runs all half brothers or better when he is done his next door neighbor uses them and he buys another set. 10-15 bulls at a crack but they are very hard to find.

[cswilson]

Excellant post cakadu.

[cowman]

I just have to agree with Purecountry on the hair thing. I like a cow with a good thick hair coat and some angus and herefords do have good hair? One reason why herefords were so tough was because they have a thicker heavier hide. That is a fact...just ask anyone who butchers cattle! And Angus(at least the old ones) had a covering of fat that pretty well insulated the whole body.
Now I'm not knocking any breed but you go up into that tough country around Kamloops and about all you see is black baldies! I assume they are angus/herfords but they might be something else?
Let's not forget that these old range cows once upon a time lived pretty tough? They lived in the slough pot holes and the chaff piles and that was it! My great granfather cowboyed for the big Burns ranch east of Olds and they spent all winter moving cattle from farmer to farmer to eat up the chaff piles. He said it was common practice for the cows to be turned out in the pothole country to look after themselves for the winter. Now those cows were generally herefords.