Outside the Box

[PureCountry]

I was talking to a good friend the other night and he mentioned this Gerald Fry fellow that's been discussed here before a little bit. He said he knows some guys in the Lloydminster area that have gotten into this linear measurement system taught by Fry and his associates, and they seem to be very optimistic about it's usefulness for selecting cattle for genetic improvement. So I looked up Gerald Fry's website - .boviineengineering.com - and read jsut about everything on there. It's actually some really amazing stuff. They mention this one guy that tracked 1500 bulls over a number of years, recording data that I wouldn't even dream of. But in the end, it went along way towards backing up these theories.

This Fry also talks about linebreeding as if it is the only true way to genetic improvement. I know nothing about linebreeding cattle, other than most people - me included - associate the term with 'IN-breeding', which brings about visions of webbed-toes, crossed-eyes, Jean Chretien and so on.
So do any of you fine folks have experience with LINE-breeding? Pros? Cons?
Anybody know about this linear measurement system? Cswilson, I remember you making some comments about Gerald Fry, but I couldn't find them in old threads.

[grassfarmer]

Look under the "Linebreeding" question I posed around March 29th. I was interested in Fry's theories too.

[cswilson]

Ohhh I guess I'm just a bit jaded with these experts that pop up every so often-anybody remember SUPERGENE most of these guys are just Bonsma with a twist. Most of us could read the Bonsma papers then spend a day studying our own cows and do a credible job. The way I look at a cow if she fits my enviroment, works in my enviroment etc. I don't need to pay an 'expert' to tell me she doesn't look like his perceived ideal of an animal should look like. As to linebreeding-there are herds that run multibreed crossbreeding programs that produce very even calf crops. Life is too short in the cattle business to give up the advantages of heterosis. I'm sure Mr. Fry has some good ideas but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. If you want to know the type of cows to run where you are spend some time visiting around your country. Most guys that have made a living off their cows know a thing or two.

[PureCountry]

Yes gents, I found your old thread now. Right there large as life before my eyes. Anyway, I spoke with Dr. John Basarab from Lacombe about some of these things, and that is one strong opponent to line-breeding. It makes real sense though - if you're doing it to bring out the good traits, you can't do it without increasing the chances of bringing out the bad. Him and I agreed that the best way to maximize heterosis was an A-B cow(F1), crossed with a bull of breed C. But a point he made was that if Gerald Fry and some of these other Bonsma-followers want to truly progress genetic improvement, they should simply teach better selection of herdsires. If people stuck to a strict breeding plan they would improve their gene pool much faster.

[grassfarmer]

Looking deeper into this linebreeding thing I am concluding that it will work but perhaps only for a master breeder that knows what they are doing with cattle. I don't feel I have the skills to try this for now.
The Luing breed was created by one family with a dream and a breeding plan. They initially inbred (half brothers-half sisters)and followed this up by linebreeding to fix the type - because they couldn't go out and buy someone elses bull. It was a brave plan but a well thought out one. They still have the breeding plan inlaid under glass on a big old table that was written around 1950. It shows a calculated breeding program to create a new breed and be able to maintain it without outside bloodlines by running seperate cow families and rotating bulls around the families. It was designed for a 500 cow herd originally but now stands at 700 so numbers obviously help.

[higainranching]

I questioned Gearld the last time he was here as to why he thought linebreeding was important. His answer as I understood it was that over years of selecting very good quality bulls for his customers there was still a problem with consistency in the calf crops. In trying to get a bull that stamps his calf crop in his likeness a high enough percentage of the time.
In his search for answers he looked at what some of the very successful dog and horse breeders where doing and linebreeding was very prevelant there.
He also states it is possible to type breed unrelated animals and get great results but your knowledge of animals and genetics needs to be very strong to achieve the same results.Linebreeding brings out the great traits in superior animals, but if there are any genetic problems they are magnified.Therefore it is only successful when using the very best animals.I hope this helps.

[cakadu]

One also has to be prepared to cull heavily any and all animals that do not meet the standards you are going for. Because the lesser desired traits can also be magnified, culling is essential. That doesn't necessarily mean culled out of your herd and into someone else's - that means that they are taken out of the production line permanently ie become sausage.

[cswilson]

I guess the problem is that there aren't any two rancher's who can agree on what the most desireable traits are. If you don't believe me just get a few together and ask them to write the top ten in order than discuss their choices. As to consistancy are we talking colour,conformation,carcass weight, carcass quality or what have you. I think ranching isn't that complicated-the majority of cows bringing home a profitable calf-I guess at what cost do we pursue perfection-they don't linebreed broiler chickens or feeder hogs.

[cowman]

I guess you have to ask yourself "What am I doing?"
If you are a master breeder selling to the purebred industry then maybe it makes sense to try to concentrate a strain? But if you are raising just "bulls" or commercial cattle, why would you want to give up hybrid vigor?
The one thing they drummed into us at A.I. school was that farmers need to crossbreed to achieve maximum production. Now somehow "production" has become a dirty word around here, but if you are raising a commodity like beef "production" is in fact dollars and you need to max out dollars while keeping costs low. Isn't that in reality what every business is about?
So if you can get $10,000 dollars for that linebred bull while it only costs you $2000 in costs(only one out of four animals superior) then I guess it would work very well. It's just like if you are spending $300/year to winter your cows but you are selling the purebred offspring for $1500 then you can justify the high wintering cost...but if you are spending $300 and only getting $500 for the calf, maybe you need to get that cost down? A whole lot of purebred men failed because they tried to be low-cost producers when they should have spent a bit more and produced a more acceptable product?

[smcgrath76]

Interesting thread for myself, as someone who is interested in genetics.
They do line breed in pigs and chickens, in fact quite heavily in many instances. The difference is that this is all done at the elite seedstock (breeding company) level. Any commercial production is done using crossbred animals produced from these linebred lines.
The old AxB crossed with CxD type of thing. In fact, while linebreeding (inbreeding) will fix genes in the population, it is PLANNED crossbreeding that generates the consistency and the hybrid vigour needed to maintain profitability.
In some ways beef is a little different as we have a somewhat looser industry structure, and it is possible to generate profit in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways.
In terms of pure "commercial/commodity" types of production systems, hybrid vigour is a neccessity.

[cowman]

Exactly Sean! Every cow guy breeding for the commercial market should be cross breeding, otherwise you leave a lot of bucks on the table...period!
The so called ideal is two maternal breeds to produce an F1 female then crossed to a terminal sire. Roy Berg of the U of A showed very clearly that you can maintain hybrid vigor with many more breeds in the mix but for simplicity sake the F1 X Terminal sire is the easiest to maintain...and by the way that can be tricky!
Linebreeding has absolutely no financial reward for your commercial breeder...or in fact your purebred breeder who is selling into the commercial market.

[higainranching]

Are you talking about producing a quality product or a commodity product?

For years the producer has been paid for pounds of beef across the scale with little premium for a high quality consistant product but I believe this will change.If you want to keep a high quality,uniform cross bred calf going across that scale it's imperative you use a great sire.

This is my short interpretation of Gearld Fry's theories:
Linebreeding can be used effectively to create these bulls.You select your very best cows and breed them to a superior bull who has a brother or other close relative who is also superior that you can use on his daughters. You are now concentrating the bloodlines of the kind of animals you want.And in the process you are creating sires that are of paternal,not maternal descent.This creates predictability.

Now you can start to take some of the bulls that this "elite" herd is producing and turn them in with your commercial cow herd.This will over time make your home raised animals related to some extent.Breed you best to your best regardless of lineage at least in enough numbers to maintain your replacements.You are creating a cow herd that excells in your environment under your conditions.If you feel it is necessary to outcross to maintain your highbred vigour this cross must be terminal.Any outside blood you feel is needed in your maternal herd do it by bringing in females not bulls.You have created good paternal bulls that you cannot buy anywhere else and you do not want to lose this.

This method of breeding requires a great understanding of your animals and their genetics to make the right matings.If you undertake it do your homework and seek advice when needed.

[cswilson]

I've seen some great herds that were bred on the premise that every bull has a great mother.Ourselves we are running 4 half brothers as cleanup bulls after A.I. all from a superior cow. As for buying in replacements unless they come from a very similare management system it's hard to make them work. Why does an outcross to utilize heterosis have to be strictly terminal? I guess I'm willing to sacrifice genetic utopia for a workable alternative that an average cowboy can keep straight. Gerald Fry seems to portray the majority of our cattle to be genetically inferior. This is simply not so-we routinely hit 90 plus percent AAA or better on the quality grid we sell on. This is from a Xbred cowherd that is selected on 'the pretty is as pretty does' principle.

[cowman]

I would suggest we are producing a quality commodity? The fact is just about every animal, if they are fed right, and processed right produces beef that is acceptable to the consumer?
Now perhaps people can squeeze a few cents more out of that consumer by being "breed specific" or branded or whatever, but is it worth giving up hybrid vigor?
The fact is no matter what breed we raise, what we are really selling is grass? And the trick is to breed the animal who will use that grass in the most efficient manner and return us the most profit per acre?
The "fads" come and go but that old cow just has to carry on doing her job of raising a big calf, rebreeding every year on time and not eating us out of house and home? If you can keep that cow, crossbred, she will do it better than a purebred...that has been proven a long time ago!

[cowman]

Correct me if I am wrong; but do not all (or most) branded beef programs include crossbred cattle sired by the breed you hope to promote? Ours does.