Hutterites

[grassfarmer]

I read occasionally in these threads references to the Hutterites or "men in black" and they are always in a negative tone - why so?
I live near a colony and have found them to be good neighbours, affordable custom operators and god fearing people yet they are not popular. I am impressed by their business skills, scale, multi-species diversity of crops and animals they keep. We hear much talk of adding value to grain by processing it through animals and trying to retain a younger generation on the land - these people do both but get condemned for it.
Is it jealousy, fear or racism that causes this dislike for these folks? One thing about them is they are Canadians and they are sucessfully expanding in agriculture at a time when others are failing - perhaps we could learn something from them?

[skeeter]

Sorry for the political incorrectness there grassfarmer. Didn't mean to slag new canadians or hutterites in that other thread just trying to make a point. As for "men in black" it refers to the movies the young hutterite boys that work for us get a kick out of 'em.

[cowman]

As with any people there are the good the bad and the ugly, so it is with Hutterites. I do believe the basic Hutterite system is starting to break down with money about the only thing holding them together anymore? The young ones are pretty wild and not religious at all!
When I go to a farmers market I try not to buy from the Hutterites...I like to buy from the mom and pop types, but perhaps that is just a personal bias? But then it's my money and I guess it is my right to spend it where I like?
But generally if it weren't for the Hutterites farm land would be a lot cheaper and therefore our assets would be a lot less, so I guess one shoudn't knock them.
Do they have an unfair advantage? Well perhaps. They definitely are well organized and know how to take every advantage of the system, which I am not saying is a bad thing. But lets not forget either that there are a lot of dead Canadian soldier boys lying in Europe who never got their chance to farm? Was that fair?

[amazed]

This may be a stupid question but here goes.

Do the Hutterites benefit from less taxation because of being a religious group when dealing with income tax? Are they able to avoid any or all income tax because of the "religious" structure of their communities.

[rsomer]

For income tax purposes Hutterite colonies qualify as communal organizations. This means income earned by these organizations can be allocated among their adult members without that income ever actually being distributed to the spouse as a regular farm has to do. This is the ulitimate tax break and gives the Hutterites an unfair tax advantage.
See: http://www.parl.gc.ca/36/2/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/080_2000-04-06/han080_1300-e.htm

For a regular farm to achieve income splitting I must write a cheque to my wife and send in source deductions to Revenue Canada or else she must claim she was a self employed contractor. The Hutterite colonies do not have to do this. No cheque is written yet the income gets split amongst every adult member of the colony. You and I cannot do that and that is not fair.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, I am not a pacifist by any means, but am trying to understand this better - under what circumstances does pacifism make you less worthy of farming? My Dad employed an old boy in the early 60's that was badly injured in WW1 and he resented a particular farming family that had been contientious objectors and had expanded their farm operations by buying land while their countrymen served in the trenches. That was 40 years after the war ended - is there a time period after which these things get forgotton? Does it only apply to WW1 and WW2? - we are now nearing 60 years after the end of WW2. At some point in the future will Canadians be deemed unfit to own land because they didn't participate in Iraq? Perhaps only Americans will be able to buy the land then - but wait what about the Americans that dodged the Viet Nam draft?

rsomer, on the tax issue I read the article you provided and am slightly confused by it as I am not too familier with tax systems here yet. The way I read that bill though (is it in place or was it a proposed bill?) was that the changes outlined were being proposed in order to "maintain a roughly equivelant level of taxation" to Hutterites and non-Hutterite farm operations. That read like they had been treated unfairly since the 1970s compared to outsiders and this was being done to redress the balance - is that correct?

[rsomer]

See: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/law/Courses/esau/litigation/huttlitigationweb.htm

[kato]

We have quite a few Hutterite neighbours. They are the first to help when someone has a disaster like a fire or flood. They are good neighbours, if you have a chance to get to know them.

The colonies around here aren't that interested in expanding land holdings any more, it seems. They are getting into manufacturing and such to diversify. You can get some pretty good kitchen cupboards from them!

I do think the future is going to be a challenge for them though. It's getting harder and harder to keep the influences of modern society out.

[circlex]

cowman you are exactly right. the good bad and ugly.I border three different colonies in southerh alberta. Two colonies are the nicest and fairest people you may ever meet, but the third one I've had too lock them out of my land cause they are always stealing thiongs off my equipment. I even had the RCMP down too this colony and I knew they had my parts but couldn't prove it. Th e next day I found it in my stubble field half mile away from where it was taken. The only reason I found it was cause I seen the colonies boys dowwn there earlier but was too far away to see which one had the partsd in their possession I use too let them travel through my land to go to town cause it was about three miles shorter but that no longer happens' I had to chain it up' so things have been alot better since that happened. No more missing parts, antennas fire extinguishers, dip sticks etc. It was getting a little expensive too replace.

[cowman]

Grassfarmer: No nothing has much changed. You can't treat one citizen a certain way and another a different way. A lot of the Mennonites were COs but they still had to serve in the army...just not sent overseas. Not so the Hutterites.
How was it right that my twenty year old uncle got killed in Holland and my Dad came back a lifelong cripple while these people stayed home and made lots of war dollars? And lets not forget Hitler would have marched them off to the gas chamber real quick if he got the chance? I believe he thought fairly highly of the English...so I guess my Dad and uncle wouldn't have been at risk?
If there was a major war today would anything have changed? Your children and mine would be going but the Hutterites would still be exempt? In a true and fair democracy everyone needs to be treated the same? Is that not fair?

[grassmarketeer]

Our local colony can be very useful, but they are our worst neighbors in many ways. When the colony arrived the local town crashed and will never recover. The school in town struggles and the merchants are leaving. The buying and selling power of the colonies is incredible. The networking of information flow from colony to colony to make deals happen is staggering. Intercolony barter and trade is running rampant. I suspect that the BLACK MARKET intercolonial trade and multigroup buying power from out of area sources, are two reasons for their success. In colony daycare and schooling are 2 others. The thievery of their youth is a result of unpaid labour and the fact that their youth are jelous. The saying "if you can't beat them join them," just doesn't work.

[grassfarmer]

Grassmarketeer, I accept your local colony may not be the best behaved one -as someone else said they contain the good the bad and the ugly just like any other society. Non Hutterites sold the land to allow the colony to be established so half the blame for your town dying must lie with them surely? The information sharing and collective bargaining power on the trade front is one of their strengths but isn't that what is continually sought on this forum? - a willingness to work together as a united industry to get a fairer deal with our produce buyers? Yet if they are called Hutterites they are seen as a mafia type organisation.

[grassmarketeer]

Grassfarmer, When locals sold to this colony not one of them knew they were selling to a colony. They were told they were selling to a 'big ranch'. If it was properly identified as a colony some would not have sold and other locals would have dug deeper in their pockets to buy. Information sharing is of paramount importance to the future for all. However, Hutterites are akin to the organized crime funded street gangs of the inner city. The council on each colony is their protector. As the population on our colony has increased to near splitting levels for the third time in 45 years, the youth have found themselves with too much time and no money. Have you never seen a large van full of drunken Hutterites? Ever had your child's TV or ghetto blaster stolen? How about the time that we had our neighbors gun waved in the face of the lady of the house. Ever seen a payloader driven through the wall of a quonset when the owners were not there?
Granted, the Hutterites are the first to help when things go wrong (ie fire etc).
The Hutterites have just about always made full restitution, but only when reasonable proof exists. These things are not easy to prove though. As well, many things are not missed for extended periods of time. RCMP involvement helps but it is fruitless since virtually any punishment is always administered In-House. It is a great way to have it since it saves sooo much money for the taxpayers and the Boys are not destroyed mentally. But it hides the problems from the rest of Canadian Society. I've never yet seen one with a criminal record, or their name dragged through the local newspaper.
Furthermore, do they ever record all the cash brought in by the sale of farm produce (radishes,carrots peas,potatoes,eggs etc.)
Finally, I am jealous that they can buy in bulk,often in multiple colony purchases, at a rate I never will be able to get for myself. They can find the deal on barley or feed 200 miles away and make it happen through intercolonial help. These are great benefits. I am just lacking the ability to do the same and it is just wishful thinking that we will ever be that well connected that we can do the same. We may get close, but never the same particularily since they rarely share with us. The more successful farms in my area with three generation living together in close proximity still won't ever have what the colonies do. Intercolonial competition will only place them in integrated multicolonial circles. Why were they discriminated against in Europe to the point they left and what concessions were made to them to want them to settle here? Do we really know the extent of that or are we really uninformed?
Most of us have European routes yet does Europe have any Hutterites?
It seems that with a cheap food policy in Canada and a farm population that vows never to bear arms (not even against the gov't) may be just what this gov't needs to keep the urban masses content.

[grassmarketeer]

Grassfarmer, When locals sold to this colony not one of them knew they were selling to a colony. They were told they were selling to a 'big ranch'. If it was properly identified as a colony some would not have sold and other locals would have dug deeper in their pockets to buy. Information sharing is of paramount importance to the future for all. However, Hutterites are akin to the organized crime funded street gangs of the inner city. The council on each colony is their protector. As the population on our colony has increased to near splitting levels for the third time in 45 years, the youth have found themselves with too much time and no money. Have you never seen a large van full of drunken Hutterites? Ever had your child's TV or ghetto blaster stolen? How about the time that we had our neighbors gun waved in the face of the lady of the house. Ever seen a payloader driven through the wall of a quonset when the owners were not there?
Granted, the Hutterites are the first to help when things go wrong (ie fire etc).
The Hutterites have just about always made full restitution, but only when reasonable proof exists. These things are not easy to prove though. As well, many things are not missed for extended periods of time. RCMP involvement helps but it is fruitless since virtually any punishment is always administered In-House. It is a great way to have it since it saves sooo much money for the taxpayers and the Boys are not destroyed mentally. But it hides the problems from the rest of Canadian Society. I've never yet seen one with a criminal record, or their name dragged through the local newspaper.
Furthermore, do they ever record all the cash brought in by the sale of farm produce (radishes,carrots peas,potatoes,eggs etc.)
Finally, I am jealous that they can buy in bulk,often in multiple colony purchases, at a rate I never will be able to get for myself. They can find the deal on barley or feed 200 miles away and make it happen through intercolonial help. These are great benefits. I am just lacking the ability to do the same and it is just wishful thinking that we will ever be that well connected that we can do the same. We may get close, but never the same particularily since they rarely share with us. The more successful farms in my area with three generation living together in close proximity still won't ever have what the colonies do. Intercolonial competition will only place them in integrated multicolonial circles. Why were they discriminated against in Europe to the point they left and what concessions were made to them to want them to settle here? Do we really know the extent of that or are we really uninformed?
Most of us have European routes yet does Europe have any Hutterites?
It seems that with a cheap food policy in Canada and a farm population that vows never to bear arms (not even against the gov't) may be just what this gov't needs to keep the urban masses content.

[grassfarmer]

Grassmarketeer, I don't think it could be concluded the Hutterites were brought here from Europe by the Canadian Government to supply a cheap source of food in the knowledge that they wouldn't take up arms against the Government.
As far as their history in Europe is concerned you could read up more at "www.hutterites.org"
Briefly, they have a history of fleeing religous and political persecution dating back to the 1500s. Jacob Hutter, their founder, was burned at the stake in Innsbruck in 1536 for refusing to renounce his faith.
They were then caught up in the religous wars that swept Europe in the 1600s that saw anyone that didn't agree with the faith of the ruler of their country at that time being killed or forced to flee to yet another country. Eventually they moved to the Ukraine region of Russia where they prospered for a while before again being forced to flee - this time to the USA in 1874. In 1918 after the Great War ended they moved into Canada and founded the current population.

As far as the crimes you have witnessed, how are these any different to the crimes committed by anyone else in Canadian society? Because they happen rurally? - every night on TV we see stories on murders,armed robberies, stabbings, drug dealing, gun crimes and drunken Hutterites are no different than drunken anyone else - have you ever been on a bus/plane with drunken soccer fans? These to my mind are just cheap shots aimed at a group of society that you admit you are jealous of - what about looking at it from their point of view?
There was a widespread belief around here a few years ago that local colony members were responsible for a large spate of rural thefts - until a local(Canadian non-Hutterite) couple left the area and the stealing stopped abruptly.