Hutterites

[cowman]

Well grassfarmer, as I stated earlier some of the young ones are wild little devils...and its not just the boys!
But that is okay it is the way of the world?
However the basic strenth of the Hutterites has always been their religion and that is fast dissappearing? Along with the rest of Canadian society I might add?
And like you say there are very good Hutterites and there are ones who leave a lot to be desired! Sort of like the general population, anywhere?
They are good farmers and they take care of their own and that is admirable, I believe?

[cakadu]

Years ago I found out a little bit about the leader of a colony. Yes, he is a protector and part of that protection includes being responsible for the souls of the people in the colony. Puts a lot of emphasis on one person.

I try not to make judgments about people based on what a few "bad apples" do. No matter what profession, religion etc. you will always find those that are not the most upright of citizens - it doesn't mean that all are bad.

We might all be better off if we took some lessons on being able to work with one another in a more collaborative fashion and loose the independent streak.

I firmly believe that with a few notable exceptions, there is always some good in people - it may just take a while to find it.

[grassmarketeer]

Grassfarmer, It is not uncommon for stealing to stop abruptly after they baptize the wild devils.
Some of my relatives were forced to flee the Crimea area of Russia too. Unfortunately for them most disappeared. Others spent many long years exiled to Siberia. But hey their resistance helped the pacifist Anabaptists to flee that extra few paces.
It should be obvious that the Canadian Gov't in the past went as far as advertising free homesteads to put the working poor out onto the land. Now that the land is in production and supporting the subsequent industry. The gov't has the larger tax base.
However, from some preliminary examination it would seem that even the local weld shops that pay town business tax,pay cpp,employment Ins, hire journeyman welders, pay income tax, and deal with workman's compensation are losing lots of business to colony fabricaion shops and repairs.
Could it be that living communally and sharing everthing is the only way to go?
I admit I take a few pot shots but wake up and smell the coffee. The trend is out there that large corporate farming is coming fast. We hear all the stories that life insurance companies are buying large tracts of land, but I do not see it. All I see is 'look there its another colony.' Some say well then get big or go home to the city. Colony expansion doesn't even mean competition in the land market anymore. They are so vertically and horizontally integrated that they are already controlling profits in the supply chain by manufacturing critical components. Good for them!!
But I would just like all farmers/businesses to be subject to the same rules. I have three veterinarians in my immediate family but they swear they are not allowed to sell/give Rompin or Lidocaine to me. So, I borrow what I need to from my local colony that does all their own veterinary work including C-sections etc.(no Dr. of Vet Med. there). It is difficult to put into words but it just feels like I'm on the tiny hind teats while the colony chaps have the main supply. Good for them, at least one of us do. What lies ahead? Will colonies continue growth rates of the last 30years? I bet someone out there has some good anecdotes of how well the Native Indians are getting along with the Hutterites for neighbors. I would love to hear them. Is it true that the hutterites and the native indians are the only two populations thriving in the rural area of the Praires.

[grassmarketeer]

Grassfarmer, What do you think the rest of us could learn from the hutterites? At my kitchen table I can bang with my knife all I want and more bread will not show up unless I get up and get it!Am I doing something wrong?

[grassfarmer]

Grassmarketeer, What could we learn from the Hutterites? well I believe we could study their model of success and efficiency and look for some pointers. Imagine farm communities that are able to expand by doubling their acreage every 25 years or so - a very different story from most prairie farmers. Perhaps their scale is working for them - if they can beat chemical and tractor companies prices down by working cooperatively that is a great advantage and one we could maybe learn from.
The main thing that I learn from them is the need for intensity of production - I don't mean by that just confinement livestock operations, I mean running multi-facet operations with a diversity of species and crops. They are value adding to grain by feeding it to geese, using the meat and filling duvets with the feathers as an example. Using their extensive shops to create welded products during the quiet winter months is another value adding product. The key in this to me is that a typical colony of say 10 sections supports over 100 people - all getting their sole living from the land. Single family farmers can't make a living off three sections of grainland so they try to buy six. Without adding the intensity of production to the operations it doesn't pay off. So we get lots of guys farming "crop insurance" - how admirable is that?
It's funny you mention Natives in your last post - and use the same ignorant terminology that was used against the Natives by the early settlers "wild devils". Looking back the settlers could have learnt a lot from the "savages" of the wild west - with their sustainable, non resource-
depleting lifestyles instead they chose to create the most damaging, wasteful society on earth.
I think the fact that you condemn the Hutterites for so much yet then use them to procure medicines smacks of hypocrisy.

[grassmarketeer]

Grassfarmer, I hope that your not labelling me to strongly. I have great admiration for our hard working natives both past and present. I'm just having a little trouble visualizing the future and trying to find a place of harmony.
I'm glad you have so much to learn from the Hutterites. Don't forget for to look at the situation holistically and remember that children must not be allowed to ice skate, bike ride, or play with any musical instrument. We could all learn how to sing again though! They do a remarkable job with only a tuning pitch to learn from as no instruments are allowed on the colony.
The children are held in oppression and forced to submit before being allowed a wife. The women, which are the glue of the colony, are secured behind the walls of the colony. With no driving experience, no room for individual expression, no high school education and virtually no career advancement. A hutterite woman feels fullfilled with 10 kids. These women are extremely content. They would not know how to function any other way.
Their success is not scale and diversity breeding success and efficiency. My grandparents were as diversified as any colony and worked hard enough to reach great economy of scale. But they allowed their girls higher education and encouraged democratic principles not communist.
Their boys were given choices re. farming vs education and some went both directions.
If these new farm communities you speak of formed and were allowed to double acreage every 25 years, what would happen when all available land touched other communal lands?
I'm all for working cooperatively but the race is on and they are way out in the lead. Therefore, they are the favorites to win. Oh sure some of us are fast enough and clever enough to let our individual charm shine through but the staying power of the leading horses will displace us as there is only so much space available at this feedbunk we call Canadian praire.
In addition, it is not that I'm hypocritical using them to procure meds. It is in this fine country of ours that they can get supplies where I would have to be a Vet to get the same stuff. I'm glad they occasionally share! But, once again if they want something they get it. I am much more bound to the laws of the land.
How would we ever beat down chemical and agricultural implement companies by working together? I'm already a member of UFA.
I obviously admire the strengths of the colony but there is not much to learn from them except to monitor new technology. I make my living off the land but I send my children into the world to learn piano,guitar,trumpet, play sports(they love skating), and off to 4-H and Air Cadets.
Do you see any way like minded farmers can be drawn into tight knit circles? I love where I'm at but if someone can take time from busy schedules to form a template that fits my networth and theirs I'll sure look at it.
I bet you look good in them rose colored glasses!

[grassmarketeer]

Grassfarmer, I have grandparents from Black Mouthed Scottish routes also. The Buchannon Clan. Sons of cannons they were. It seems our Kingship has remained dormant for some time now. Still have the family tartans somewhere. Were your family subjected to persecution and retreated to the Highlands where they survived eating black berrys. Many from Europe have suffered persecution for their beliefs, some just fight and others take flight.
I sure know who I want defending me, and it doesn't include Pacifists that won't even contribute to the war effort monetarily or otherwise. For years many of the Hutterites even argued that they were not even farming for profit but just a religious sect living together in perpetual poverty since each individual made nothing. They have been a hard population to tax appropriately.

[grassfarmer]

Nope, I don't have either rose tinted glasses or a black mouth! We are Lowland Scots that have lived near the Scotland/England border certainly since the late 1600s. I don't know which Scots you refer to that retreated to the Scottish Highlands. Most that were forced to live off the land before leaving for the New World were displaced by Southern landlords that wanted the land for big flocks of sheep as opposed to crofting and a few cattle (the Highland Clearances). The few clans that supported the loser Bonnie Prince Charlie (the Jacobite rebellions) retreated to the Highlands after their ill fated march to London. Both these groups already lived in the Highlands though.

It seems to me much of your anger is directed against the Hutterites when it's the system that is wrong. If you feel they are unfairly taxed that is an issue for Revenue Canada and the Canadian Government to rule on. The case of availability of drugs is something the Canadian vet organisations should be dealing with - this is a valid complaint just don't blame the wrong people for it.

[grassmarketeer]

I have no anger against the Hutterites at all except the wild young devils that vandalize and steal from me and my neighbors. Granted they are a product of circumstances that exist for others as well. I am sure that Revenue Can. has tried to deal with them, but they arenot easily dealt with due to the mix of religion,politics and culture. I will continue to remain friends with my neighbors. It is just that eventually their culture will leave no room for my descendants. Of course mine might not choose to farm, manufacture or butcher and then it would be someone elses concern.

[grassmarketeer]

I'm no Scottish History expert. I just know that my ancestors were Covenantors. Many were butchered in front of their families for their beliefs. They were hunted down like animals and driven from their homeland. After successfully trouncing an invasion led by the Catholic movement of the time it got very ugly. During that time in history, the 1630's I believe, over 20000 ended up in N. Ireland. I can only surmize that many who were left in Scotland were either pacifist sympathizers that sat back and watched or those that that supported the butchery. Albeit that some good Scots always find the cracks. Does your roots trace back to religious persecutors or not?

[cswilson]

In our neck of the woods it's natives we complain about instead of hutterites.One old native fellow summed it up-he was peeling rails for a big ranch while his boss stood there telling him how lucky he was to be an indian. The old native guy just looked up and said "you want to trade places". When I travel to southern Alberta to buy cattle I find of alot of hypocrisy about hutterites-nobody wants them but everybody takes their money at a bull sale. I will tell you one thing a hutterite cow boss was one of the few guys to phone me and ask me if I was happy with the cattle I had bought. As to them being wild young devils unfortunatelt I was too and I am not a hutterite.

[grassfarmer]

Grassmarketeer, If you are descended from Covenantors that was happening in southern Scotland not the Highlands. Many of the sites of battles in that dispute were on farms in my immediate vicinity. Our family has no known history of either being religous persecutors or victims at that time. We were always a farming family.
It's not really a discussion for the beef section of Agriville but what is Pacifism exactly? I believe Hutterites are true pacafists because they never go to war. I raised the question earlier in this thread about whether people who live in a country yet don't participate or support that countries war efforts are necessarily pacafists(eg Canadians in Iraq or Americans in Viet Nam.) On the same grounds the Scottish people that didn't participate on either side of the religous persecution you mention probably weren't pacafists - just didn't feel it the right cause to be involved in perhaps? Pacafists never go to war so by implication they never start wars either so they would argue they shouldn't fight someone elses war for them. Interesting discussion though.

cswilson - I very much agree with your comments.

[grassmarketeer]

cswilson I sure liked your comments. Thanks. Niether the Hutterites nor I would be able to live the life of the other though. It is nice to give gratitude to those who support you. It is unfortunate that others do not seem to find the time to thank their buyers and check up on things. I know if I had more help at home I would probably do a better job of that. I'll work on that!
Grassfarmer, I am only trying to avoid the conflicts that others have witnessed. If my American neighbors started hunting and trapping and butchering Hutterites beside me I would have to come to their defense. It wouldn't due them justice to just continue farm business as usual and use a few of the entrails as fertilizer.

[cowman]

The whole point on the pacifsism thing was you can't treat citizens differently? The Canadian government forced the Mennonites to serve, but not the Hutterites? The fact was no one who was conscripted ever went over seas to actually fight. I don't think anyone could ever compare World War II with Vietnam or especially Iraq? Maybe this is irrevalent today but my grandmother stilled cried 35 years later when ever she talked about her dead son. For what? Why was he there? Hitler had absolutely no intentions for Canada?
I have found over the years that it is a good idea to always thank the guy who bought your cattle...whether they be bulls or just feeder cattle. I used to regularily thank Rick Pascal and Gary Kelsey when they bought my feeder cattle. They always seemed to appreciate it and they always bought my cattle(for a small premium, or so I believe). I guess I just learned early to thank them as my Dad did the same.

[kato]

Cowman - My uncles were conscripted and both fought in WWI. One lasted a whole week before he was shot and sent home. But that's another topic all together.

As for Hutterites, we deal with a number of colonies through the vet clinic I work at. Our vet is called out to work for them a lot.

They don't do their own surgery, and don't buy restricted drugs. They do demand a good deal though. LOL. They also pay their bills.

Some are very progressive and are constantly looking for new ideas and vaccines and drugs that haven't been approved of yet. Some others... well, not so progressive. Just like the general population.

From what I see, life on a colony isn't quite as rosy as it seems. It all depends on who is the boss. We work with one colony that has a big playground, and has picnics and sports days in the summer. They play baseball and let the kids have pets.

Another colony won't even let the kids play at all. It varies. I know which one I'd rather live on. I have noticed that the thievery and wild behaviour tends to come from the stricter colonies. Some colonies have terrible alcohol problems, yet on a colony near us, all the men quit drinking to make life easier for the one who was having a hard time with alcohol. You have to admire that.

As for the Scottish thing.. my family were Highlanders booted out during the Clearances. My uncles liked to joke that it was for stealing sheep!