R - Calf

[Willowcreek]

I'd tend to agree with wilson on this one. These guys are not just out to look after their cow and feeder prices, (which I question are being fueled completely by the border closure) but out to line their own pockets. I have yet to see an organisation of so called capitalists who do what is best for the grass roots.

This Goggins fellow wrote an amazing article in his own newspaper last October about how Canadian Ranchers would be kicking the Americans Ranchers asses if the shoe were on the other foot. I wrote him and asked if lepers like us Canadians would ever be welcome to advertise in his paper again. What do you think his response was.

I would like to bet that the border closure and all of it's affect on new Rcalf members has had a velvet lining for Goggins and his band of merry men.

Sure we need a bit more than the complete lack of protectionism that Canada offers, but to say these R calf hipocrites are doing any more than helping themselves ---- come on!

[cowman]

I suspect a lot of these "ignorant protectionists" aren't really all that ignorant but are trying to protect their interests? When the day comes that South American beef can enter our country I wonder if we will be such staunch free traders?...Sure you can sell your 50 cent grass fed beef here boys! Come on in!...that sort of thing?
If you find these R-calf types so offensive why are you still dealing with them?
Perhaps these ignorant farmers have gotten fed up with their National Cattle Associations? Sort of like how a lot of people are up here with the ABP/CCA? Maybe they think the National Cattlemans Ass. doesn't represent them at all...but the packers and big lots?...Again sort of like here?
Maybe it's time we had a grass roots organization that represented the cow/calf guy too?

[cswilson]

I find as ranchers get older they get less innovative as well as free enterprise and more lets watch the retirement kitty so it doesn't lose value. There is opportunities for wealth creation in ranching today as there has been forever. Aggressive innovative producers will adapt and find it-ranching is like any other business-there are people making money and people losing money every day-trust me there would still be ranchers going broke at $2.00 calves and there still will be ranchers making money at $1.00 calves. We definately don't need R-Calf in Canada-like it's been mentioned they are nothing but a splinter group representing a very small percentage of U.S. cattlemen.

[cowman]

I guess you are right cwilson. Someone will always raise cattle no matter how little return they get on their money. And they'll figure out a way to do it cheaper...like feed them sawdust or something!
Which is alright I suppose. The general consensus in the "holistic approach" seems to be that they need to be able to rustle up their own feed and they can bed in the snow. Now a guy like me can't, or actually I should say won't, compete with that philosophy. When I drive by a bunch of cattle plastered with frozen manure from sleeping in the snow and its forty below I frankly am disgusted! Or see cows out trying to graze in the cold with a SE wind blowing. Or see a dead cow with a dead calf sticking out of her because no one was there to help.
I guess I'm too much old school. I believe what my Dad said" If you can't take care of them, don't own them."
So defacto, I don't belong in the "new cattle business", nor do I want to.
I'll let those "innovative entrepreneurs" get out there and squeeze that last nickel out of those old cows. Hope the SPCA or PETA doesn't catch them?

[cowman]

What an utterly disgusting description of sustainable agriculture. cowman you are totally out to lunch on that one.

[grassfarmer]

What garbage Cowman! The things you describe seeing sound like someone keeping cattle poorly in a conventional system. Apart from about 6 leaner old cows I have wintered my cows entirely away from the corrals with no bedding this winter and they are immaculate. Their hair coats have remained spotless at all times sleeping in the snow - all my neighbours that bed cows are the ones with the matted dirty coats. I provided windbreak or bush shelter on the very few days we had severe weather this winter but otherwise they were out manuring the land as nature intended. I would suggest that most people adopting a holistic or extended grazing regime spend far more time with their cows and will actually observe their body condition better than a conventional farmer - the type of guy who spends his time in a tractor and checks his cows once a week.
I'm have over 60 calves having started the mature cows on 8th April and what a joy it has been. Had two assisted calvings (one twisted uterous and one with twins)and two calves to suckle due to poor udder shapes, apart from that every calf has been up, suckled and zero treatment needed. Cows are out on the clean, but limited banked grass I kept over from last year plus getting hay to eat - would I go back to winter calving, with deep snow and -40C weather, with cows in corrals using a pile of expensive bedding to be less comfortable? I don't think so.

[cswilson]

That was uncalled for Cowman if you can't be rational maybe is time to exit-there is a big difference between starving and being innovative. Everybody becomes more conservative as they get older-I'm not as aggressive as I was at 20 now that I'm 40. I think it's delusional to expect the taxpayers to support our industry no matter how high our costs rise. Oh by the way do I phone the S.P.C.A. next time I see a calf with frozen ears-a cow getting a big calf cut out-a frozen tit. There are pitfalls and tradeoffs to every management system.

[cswilson]

Cowman-Nov. 1995 Cattleman cover if you want to see some of those terrible starved out cows us holistic new age cowkillers raise.

[cowman]

Whoa boys! Are you ever out and about!
Now I am sure you are a bunch of puritans but don't be shooting me for what I see! I'm not the bastard not bedding his cows!
The fact is there are people who do these kind of things...and yea I've seen them!
cwilson:Somehow you've got this idea I'm some old SOB...Like... I've got a couple of years to go till I hit 50! So maybe I'm not a complete dinosaur? And maybe I'm one hell of a lot better man than you'll ever hope to be? But I will tell you I was born on a cows tit and my people go back in cow one hell of a long way so don't try to tell me where the world starts or ends!!!!
Will I phone the SPCA when I see this crap happening? No I won't! I figure that is between you and your maker and some day you will answer for how you treated your fellow creatures!

[cswilson]

Well this obviously is going nowhere when you can have a rational discussion without bringing in how much better a man you are and religion into it i'll reply to your post until then try and refrain from the personal slurs.

[cswilson]

Didn't have time to respond to this garbage this morning and I'm glad I collected my thoughts first or I may have gotten into the shouting match too.

I would like to respond to both cases of animal cruely that cowman has attributed to holistic farm management.

#1 - the cows with shit and tag all over from sleeping in the snow. If you think cows are that stupid -----. Yes we domesticated the beasts and are therefore responsible for them. But a shit tagged cow is one that has been neglected in an intensive environment, not an extensive more natural way. Might I suggest an operator with little fenced property who had some straw available and then quit. Cows will not lie in their own shit unless they are forced to do so, or where offered a bed and then had it taken away due to neglect.

As far as the dead cow with the dead calf hanging out of her I would have to agree with grassfarmer concerning the manager with more COW TIME. I would also like to suggest that this farmer was trying to squeeze the last penny out of this cow by leaving common sense and natural ways behind and using a bull that forced her beyond her limit to line his pocket and give him bragging rights in the auction barn in the fall. This scenerio is more often played out in the opposite ranching philosophy to holistic management.

We need you on this site cowman, but somehow you need to admit that your statements about "the new cattle business" are wrong. This new cattle business is more than likely closer to the way your long line of people in cattle managed than you want to admit.