Industry exposure

[ValueChainFX]

Is the industry what you think it should be? I'm sure there have been a lot of people throughout the supply chain in the agriculture / food industry that have asked that question in the past year.

We have all been exposed to all sorts of information, some good some way off the wall. I wonder at some of the comments that we see (even in this forum) why it is so hard for people that have obviously been in the circles to visualize the primary producer as a viable force? My own experience indicates that the primary producer is finding the contacts and trustworthy people to work! I do believe that the primary producer of today will eventually do something that will better the industry "for the future"!

For those that still feel they have to question, add comments that have no positive spin, or think the government is going to save us, bless your faith! I'm glad to see you are protecting what you believe in. For the primary producers that are looking for people to work with and a real industry plan, the options and opportunity have never been better!

[Horse]

Value chain I sure admire a person that can see the good in every thing but please explane you thoughts that options and opoturnities are never better Im afraid I just cant see them.
It seem a lot like the guy that went out to drain the swamp but when you are up to tour ars in aligators it is hard to rember that you are just out there to drain the swamp.

[cowman]

Value chain: Maybe I'm not talking to the right people or something, but what I see is a lot of old people hoping for a miracle! They really aren't looking for a chance to invest but a chance to bail out!....myself included!
Like I said maybe I'm talking to the wrong people, because I'm sure there are lots of eager beavers just waiting to buck the beef "monopoly"! And I wish them lots of success and I truly mean that! I hope it works.

[ValueChainFX]

There are for sure many that just want to bail. But in the last month alone there have been many that have come to the conclusion that, if it is going to happen they are going to have to be a part of the solution. Canadian consumers are getting the picture that the agriculture business has neglected the primary producers and the big corps have kept a thumb on them. They have supported what they thought were programs to support the primary producer and would continue to do so if we were able to present them with a consistent program. Even some of the people from agriculture support sectors have been stepping forward to ask what they can do and how they can become involved.

The opportunities to work together yet stay independent and balance of margins is better today than ever. The opportunities to work with and bring expertise into the cooperative improve as the experts begin to understand the challenges ahead are not only those of the primary producer but their challenge as well.

I still see some of the industry "Experts" acting like someone that works from the Government. Say "No" or "I don't believe it"! Than trying to justify why they said it.

Putting affordable infrastructure back into the rural communities and maintaining high standards is all I seem to be able to focus on, so my narrow view may be somewhat warped as well. But I fear that a direct marketer, or a provincially inspected product may cause a health problem and a broad brush would be used on the producers as a "Situation Fix"! Those that really know the industry, have to know that our provincial plants need to do a better job on food safe product, and we also know that some people sell directly off the farm with "No Inspection"!

The point of this thread is basically to point out that if you have an industry back ground and are exposed to "Experts"! Or you are an "Expert" in your own mind, maybe real solutions could be offered by you!

[bombay_43]

I am also hanging with the "wrong" crowd!

Although the many ideas exist out here, as to how to make our industry a viable part of the economy again, not too many are do-able without government backing!

I would love to see Canada step up to the plate. Maybe test ALL beef as requested, in order to have it heading to a Japanese market!?

Maybe, BAN hormone implants, and compete for a legitimate European Beef market!

Maybe quit banging our heads against a brick wall, and look to other directions instead of SOUTH!

I listened to the President want-to-be, Mr. Kerry, this morning. He has urged the White house to keep the border closed to Canadian Beef,...indefinitely!

None of these markets can be obtained without governments backing us! Like it or not, politics is VERY much a part of our idustry, and will remain so.

Packing plants can not be built without governments say so, markets can not be negotiated, and so on.

If the consumer is presumed, "Always right", then give our international markets what they want! What ever is necessary! After all, we were not opposed to allowing the USA to bring in blue tongue and anaplasmosis, in order to.... oh yeah, I almost forgot, nothing was actually put in writing!!!!

No, Value Chain, I don't see this industry through your eyes.

I am tired of busting my butt for an industry that is more uncertain now, than ever before.

Our government programs which you mention, have by passed our farm, so I for one, will oppose programs such as CAIS. My neighbors tell me that we don't qualify because we are obviously doing "something" right! Yep, that makes my bank book look a lot better!

I suspect there are many more out here who are in the same boat, and quite frankly, don't wish to sink any more savings into what "may" be a dead horse!

We are heading for year two of BSE, with no bright horizon in the future. Yes, I guess I am a pessimist!

If I were an optimist, I would train the upcoming grasshoppers to eat beef! There aren't enough coyotes in this country to take care of all the dead carcasses piling up after the rendering truck no longer gets called!! Talk about potential for more diseases being spread!!! How long before some other outbreak occurs??

My rant for the day! Wish I could say I feel better!

[nerves]

Value chain provincial plants are checked 2 or three times a week the water is tested and bacteria checks are done on cutting utensils and boards. Federal Plants do the same on a daily basis, only there is more people so more chance of contamination. Federal plants grade meat provincial plants do not they check meat quality and animal quality. Look at the problems hospitals have with bacteria. A provincal plant may have 30 people to look after to make sure they wash their hands and sterlize their cutting tools and boards. Big plants have hundreds or thousands of people to watch do you think big brother is watching them to make sure they wash their hands and tools of all contamination? Why do you think the big boys want to radiate meat sold? Because they are worried about bacteria the more they process the meat the greater the chance. The bigger the plant the more the chance of contamination. As a direct marketer the meat comes out of the small provincal inspected plant froze and stays froze untill it gets to the consumer. Can you say that about our grocery chains? Why do you think they are using preservatives and dies. The consumer has had enough of this crap. We have been direct marketing since January halves and whole beef and now market cuts through freezers in big store parking lots. The stores welcome us with open arms and now want us to expand through their chain of stores selling just as we are now. The consumers line up and every day someone will stand up and tell people in the line how great the beef is.The consumer wants NO HORMONES, NATURAL FEED GRAINS, AND NO ANTIBIOTICS. We are nor afraid to meet the public face to face and talk to them about beef they are interested. We are proud of what we raise and don"t feel we have to hide behind some big corporation and let them sell our products. We are looking at marketing 200 animals this year next year we could very well double it. Why would we meess around with building packing plants. We raise the animals and market them. Let the small packing plant do what they do best and we can handle the rest.

[nerves]

I consider myself somewhat of an industry expert in the Purebred Cow/Calf industry, and the idea of having other experts employ their talents for my benefit has always been part of our game.

I was not willing to sit back and watch the Three Big American Packers doupe the federal government out of taxpayers dollars while also making the best profits in their history. And I have vowed to only use this scathed system when I absolutely have no other recourse.

Last summer we joined up with a very insightful man who had started a branded beef program a few years earlier. His untimely death last fall left us with a hole in our guts and another in our wallets. Could have ended our jump out of the mainstream, except for another man even more well connected with an excellent marketing team. This partnership has led us from not only one, but two branded beef products for both breeds of cattle our purebred farm raises.

I understand that the industry needs more than these little niche market branded products to survive, and the Canadian owned "Producer Packing Plants" talked about on this and other threads are very good options. One point stessed by one of our Agriville folk that I really like is the shares being offered to all elements of the industry, as well as "average Joe citizen".

Our little project simply involves primary producers, feedlot folk, Provincial Packers, and our marketing team. No one sector will become rich over it, but all the profits will stay here in Canada.

I guess my point would be to let the experts do their job, but become part of a veticle market, whether it be a branded beef product, or a LINK
in a Value Chain.

[cowman]

I see the senate is now on the bandwagon promoting more packing houses. They are saying $270 million in new venture capital! Now how many packing houses would that build? Should be more than enough capacity to kill every animal in Canada?
Which is fine but who will build them? If it is more Cargill/IBP type of thing then they can keep their 270 million as far as I'm concerned!
The plain truth is why waste anymore money? The government needs to get these multinationals under control before they start throwing money at them?
I have come to the firm conclusion that these large corporations are efficient and effective, because they use sleazy tactics to muscle out the competition, whether that is buying the politicians or predatory business practices. I believe they could teach the Mafia a trick or two! Which isn't really too surprizing considering how Tyson accumulated his wealth.

[cakadu]

I'd like to get people's opinions on this because I'm a little curious about how more packing plants are going to help at this point in time when we can't export the beef anywhere?

What we appear to be doing is focusing on the cattle, when we should be focusing on the meat. In many respects it's not any different than the governments increasing production by 20% - where is that extra production and the resulting meat from it - going to go if there are no markets to ship it too? As near as I can see, you just have more surplus for the packers to use to force downward pressure on the price i.e. oversupply.

How will more packing plants, particularly those targeting the cull cows, help to increase the current price of the cow?

By the time many, or any, of these plants get up and running we should see the border opened. What happens then? In the normal business cycle - which is what is happening here - and human nature being what it is, if the bid price is a nickel more than what you can get elsewhere, what do you think is going to happen? Many times over the years we have seen in these threads reference to the fact that when barley prices are down, do livestock people ask to pay more for the barley because it is worth it? No, they don't. When hay prices were high, did sellers drop the price to keep the neighbor across the road in cattle so that there would be someone to buy hay next year? No they didn't.

Realistically, human nature and wanting to make the most money when you can, win out over anything else. I wholeheartedly believe in the value chain system and have from the time it was introduced into agriculture back in 1997. I also want to see the producer getting more for a quality product - of that there is absolutely no question. Do I encourage value chains and working together - yes.

As someone who for the last 12 years has witnessed these plants being proposed, these are still the same questions I would like answered today that I did back then. As someone who deals in what is termed "diversified livestock" we have had to look at any and all alternatives that came along. Plans, proposals, research and being told we are "thisclose" sadly do not sometimes translate into succesful, sustainable actions. Yes, consumers say that they would like to see more paid to the producer, but they are not willing to pay any more for the products. Countless research studies have shown that consumer will say they will pay more for certain products, yet when given the opportunity to buy them, they don't because they cost more. Many consumers say they would like to buy locally grown product, but what does local mean? Going to the safeway on the corner, to the farmer's market (which operates from May to October here) directly to the farm, what does it mean to them? People I have asked if they would like to buy local say they would if given the opportunity, but they will NOT pay any more for it.

I believe it was Rpkaiser that pointed out, they were working quite well in one of these chains but when the champion sadly passed on, the whole thing collapsed. How does it become sustainable over the long-term and survive the champion? And the other really important question for me is what does the champion hope to gain personally for this i.e. what personal agendas are being filled here? That is why in a value chain transparency and trust are of the utmost importance.

As someone looking at this from a purely business perspective, these questions have to be answered for me, no matter how much I believe in the concept and wish it to become a reality.

[blackjack]

Cakadu is on the money once again! As an industry we need to find the market for the packaged product before we build the packing plants. Are the markets in our major cities like Montreal or Toronto flooded with beef? Where are the packing plants going to sell their product? These are the serious questions that needed to be answered first! What is going to stop the big packing plants from doubling up their capacity?

As far I am concerned the only one that should be building another major packing plant (IF NEEDED) is our ABP or CCA. The only reason is all producers share in it because of the checkoff!


We need to leave the small marketers like Cakadu , Kaiser , NERVES to do their thing because if we all switch to trying to market our beef locally we will end up cutting are own throats price wise!

[blackjack]

Cakadu is on the money once again! As an industry we need to find the market for the packaged product before we build the packing plants. Are the markets in our major cities like Montreal or Toronto flooded with beef? Where are the packing plants going to sell their product? These are the serious questions that needed to be answered first! What is going to stop the big packing plants from doubling up their capacity?

As far I am concerned the only one that should be building another major packing plant (IF NEEDED) is our ABP or CCA. The only reason is all producers share in it because of the checkoff!


We need to leave the small marketers like Cakadu , Kaiser , NERVES to do their thing because if we all switch to trying to market our beef locally we will end up cutting are own throats price wise!

[nerves]

Blackjack go to your local fast food restaraunt or IGA or what ever grocery store is near your and try talk the manager into let them sell your beef. These stores are under contact to be supplied by guess who. So while you build your packing plants you might as well build your own grocery stores while your at it. The big corporations control food period not just beef. If you wait for the times to get better and when the border opens we will all live happly ever after then as far as I am concernd you cut your own throat as a price taker. Has any ever thought about if you support your local small packer that maybe they well expand. They are business men to.

[cakadu]

Nerves, I'm actually glad that you brought up the point about supporting local packing plants. Yesterday I heard about producers who were lamenting the fact that the local packing plant had closed down. Yet, when asked why they didn't support him, it became readily apparent the reason they didn't was because at the time they were getting 2 cents per pound more from the conventional system. Yes 2 cents was enough to get them to go elsewhere.

In some respects that is why I have been saying to go slower, work with what is already there, get a system in place that WORKS in practice, not just in theory and then worry about expansion and going whole hog. They say that in order to be able to operate the plant, you have to have triple what the actual plant will cost you to build. If the plant is going to be 5 million, then realistically you need 15 million because you aren't going to be at full production and capacity right away.

I don't know how many of you have seen a program called Beef Inc., it was on the knowledge channel a couple of nights ago and it was about the big 3 in the beef business - ConAgra, IBP (Lakeside in Alberta) and of course Cargill. It was all about how we got to where we are and the amount of clout that these packing plants have. There was a lady from the Kansas beef producers (I think it was that group - don't quote me on it) and she was talking about how the packers cannot put much pressure on the retailers, so they put the pressure on where they can and that is with the producer.

If there are some 2 million beef cattle that go through the system in Alberta every year (and this number could be conservative I'm sure and if someone has better numbers, please feel free to share them) and the packers are allowed 10% ownership (never mind the feedlots that custom feed for the packers) that would be some 200,000 cattle if my math is right. How many days slaughter capacity is that for them? How long could the packers actually go without having to buy cattle?

I found the program to be very informative and gave a reasonably good picture of what was happening. Cor van Raay was interviewed and my spouse felt that best statement he made was the fact that the feedlots evolved to the point that they have because the consumer wants cheap food. I certainly agree with the last part of the statement - the consumer wants cheap, high quality safe food - and the emphasis is on the cheap.

The best way to add value is to differentiate your product from what is out there in the mainstream. Niche markets do not by definition have to be small and in fact some of them do quite a lucrative business AND they do it with food safety and quality in mind at all times.

I heard an interesting statement one time "we are trying to eat elephants, while choking on ants."

[ValueChainFX]

NeRves, welcome to the discussion. I see you enter right in with both feet . You may think this is what is happening, but the fact is our provincial plants are in very sad shape. If you are happy with what is working for you, that is good, keep doing what you're doing. Visual inspection will show you we have a long way to go (unless you listen to the provincial government). The Federal system even in the big plants is very well monitored and they keep accurate records in a very well laid out HACCP plan.


Most of the people in these forums agree the system needs to be improved. To improve them we need to recognize the inequities and deal with them. As usual each person has a choice and there is no need to change or become involved if what you are doing is working and that keeps you happy.

For those of us that are working to improve the system, positive input helps a lot.

[cakadu]

In what way are the provincial plants in sad shape? The odd plant may be lacking, but that will be taken care of next year when they all have to be at a certain code - we may see some provincial plants closing their doors, but I would say that many of them are functioning very well and producing safe products.

To say that all provincial plants are in sad shape and that they will bring the entire meat industry down is misleading at best and erroneous at worst. If there were problems at the local provincial plant - which by the way we use and have used for 10 years, - believe you me, we would hear about it. We have 5 local papers in our area and that news would spread like a grassfire on our drought-striken prairies. With all of the things plaguing the meat industries right now i.e. BSE, bird flu and lord knows what else is going to strike next, do you think anyone could cover up a potential threat? In recent years, the majority of meat recalls have come from federally inspected plants with high volume.

There is the potential for contamination whether you are federal or provincial and being of a certain standard does not preclude or exclude one from this potential. People get sloppy, shortcuts are taken, repetiveness breeds contempt, take your pick. Things happen.

When a major plant has a meat recall, you might loose certain customers, but they manage to retain a large enough share that they can continue on. Direct marketers and the provincial plants cannot afford a loss of any degree. I daresay at the provincial plant where the meat processed is sold over the counter and they get to know their customers, they do everything they can to keep their business prospering, which includes keeping customers happy. Many of these businesses grow by word of mouth - which is a double-edged sword - do good and you'll benefit, do harm and you're dead in the water.

If I didn't have trust in my provincial abbatoir, I wouldn't be using him - period - I would find someone I did trust. The relationship we have built up is a good one, it functions and we have both benefitted from it. It works well for us and we don't plan to change anything at the present.