The Creekstone deal?

[rusty1]

I quess I'm a little daffy. I don't ubderstand anyone prompoting testing without in the same BREATH, talking about what and who is going to determine what exactly will happen when we find the next BSE by testing everything?

[jensend]

i think the idea of blanket testing is that you eliminate the food safety issue by not letting an infected animal into the human food supply. to me this is better than playing russian roulette with sampling. if you read other discussion forums there is still some uncertainty about the science and if they are talking about blood tests to determine infection then blood must be carrying some indicator of prions if not the prions themselves. if the science is uncertain you have to go to a higher level of precaution which means more testing until the science is refined or the risk is eliminated. call it a food safety issue or a marketing issue but it doesn't matter if it both ensures the safety of the product and increases sales. i think the 'terrorists' are south of the 49th and we are the hostages. cca, abp, etc. are nibbling at the bait that usda offers up (we're in the process of opening the border) and a lot of producers' livelihoods are being eroded by this waiting game. rusty1 - you ask what will happen with blanket testing when the next positive is found; at least with the universal testing we do have the defence of protecting the consumer. when the next positive comes up with only sampling i know the border will slam shut again and it will be too late for many of us to wait it out. start testing now and claim some markets before we are locked out for years to come.

[skeeter]

The message to consumers has been and should be that testing does not make the beef any safer. Testing cattle under thrity months is like testing little girls for prostate cancer. By removing the SRMs from the human food chain you remove the infective agent. By having an effective feed ban in effect you should stop the amplification of the disease in the cow herd as long as there is no cross feeding. You do need to test a percentage of high risk over thirty month cattle to see if the feed ban is effective and to what extent you have the disease in a national herd. Canada and the US are both ramping up this survielance testing over the next months and years to see where we are at. High risk cattle are deads, downers, diseased and distressed this is where you get the most bang for your testing buck. Blanket testing for a single country or customer is like a car manufacturer putting an air-bag in the trunk for a single customer great if you can charge more for it but what if you can't? Then the manufacturer bears the extra cost and what does he tell all his other customers when they demand air-bags or testing as well; gee I was just doing it for him not everybody. The americans know it is in their best interest to recognize Canada as a minimal risk country and accept imports from us because if they have a case or two THEY still want to be able to export. We do need trade rules that allow for additional cases as long as a country has mitigations in place and I understand those are being worked on.
Our critical problem in Canada is slaughter capacity the boreders are open to our beef the US,Mexico and eleven other countries will take our beef. The problem is getting them into a box! Testing extra cattle to ship a few tons to Japan doesnt releive this problem. North America needs to show we can trade with each other and reason with Japan basing our arguments on science.

[raymondb]

If the air bag only cost $18.00, every car would have one- just like every car will have the "black box" in the future.

The science related to BSE is unproven. If it was proven, every animal would have been tested years ago. They were not tested years ago because there was no quick reliable test. Today, we can do a blood test at the farm for $18.00(at least this is the figure that is talked about) Lets prove the test and then lets ensure we can get rid of BSE. Is it only caused by feed? Is it a natural occurring disease? Is it related to a particular gene? Are we 100% positive that an animal under 30 months will not have this disease but magically at 31 months it gets this disease? We have way more questions than answers-lets get the answers.

[cswilson]

I think the test everything theory has the USDA worried because they know that they will find another positive-it is almost a certaintity.

[whiteface]

Absolutly the U.S. is afraid of finding another case. Sounds like a few people in Canada may be as well. Why be afraid? Of course we're going to find another case. I'd rather find it than not. Let's deal with it. Let's test them until we can "prove" our feed and SRM safeguards work. Let's test and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that we stand behind our product and will give the consumers (the ones who PAY for the product)what they are asking for. How many of you have gone shopping for a bull and no matter how much the seller sings and dances you will not buy a bull that does't meet your criteria. Not only that, if any of you felt for one second the seller would not stand behind his product you will not buy him, period. I see this every year. It is about giving the PEOPLE THAT WE WANT TO SELL TO what they want. If we're okay with simply selling amongst ourselves fine, don't test, we know it's safe. Point is, we want the export market because we have allowed exports to control us. Until slaughter facilites are built in Canada to accomodate our own cattle we are at the mercy of giving our buyers what they want. As far as the U.S. goes however, they're just makeing us dance because they're control freaks, they like the feeling of power they have and like any bully they have to kick us because for the first time in their history someone else ( Japan) is making them wait and wonder and produce for them something the states doesn't "feel" like producing. I absolutly predict nothing will happen in the way of live exports with the states unless and until they sort out their problems with Japan and that won't happen until the elections in Japan are long over. The allowing of all meats from cattle thirty months and younger I feel is simply a tease and nobody get excited anytime soon. Certainly don't ease up on any pressure you might be putting on the politicians and let's keep driving towards owning our own problem and creating the ability to process and market our own meat in the form of Canadian packing plant(s) and the ability ( permission) to test if that's what the consumer wants and will pay for. You pay more for performance data, color, E.P.D.'s, carcass evaluations, larger scrotums, etc. etc. in your bulls, if the customer wants testing, they get it and they pay for it otherwise if they choose not to pay we don't test and whatever this may evolve into so be it. That's business. Producing the product that people ask for.

[cakadu]

Whiteface that is a good point that you make and welcome to the forum. Always great to see new names and comments coming up.

At some point in time, all that the consumer is demanding has to be paid for by the consumer. It is fast becoming a social issue, not just one where the producer has to bear all of the costs to ensure that the food is safe all through the system. More and more keeps getting downloaded onto the producer with no mention of any extra compensation to them. Yes, keeping a clean, environmentally friendly farm is important, but the majority of food borne illnesses occur after the animal has long left the farm i.e. at the processing plant.

I'm all for food safety and we practice it to the extent that we are able. In the past we have been encouraged to export and once we get this politlical nightmare straightened out, we will be once again. I believe that if you want to export, then you should be held to a higher standard and have more hoops to jump through. If, however, you have no intention of exporting, while food safety remains paramount, you shouldn't be expected to follow the same regimen as someone who is exporting.

The only thing I wonder about with the BSE testing is if we really don't know how it is spread, what really causes it and the fact that we are barely scratching the surface in what we know about it, then isn't testing everything somewhat akin to taking a shotgun and hoping something hits? We need to understand more about this phenomenon so that when we test, we know with a high degree of certainty what it is we are looking for.

I see the testing as a double-edged sword. Yes, we will find more cases and that can be used as an assurance to consumers, but there are groups out there that will take and twist it which could create massive headaches for us.

I often wonder if in our wisdom, when we signed onto the deal about the 7 year moratorium if BSE was found, we were being naive (or arrogant?) because we didn't have it here. Did we really think it would never come back to haunt us oneday? Quite often what seems like a good idea at the time, turns out not to be.

[whiteface]

Thanks for the compliment cakadu and yes, I agree wholeheartedly that sometime decisions made today may come back and bite us in the but later, but we all try to take calculated risks based on as much knowledge as we can muster up at the time. One of the real good reasons I love to see all kinds of producers sharing ideas and bringing their experiences to the table like in these threads. I for one am deathly concerned that we don't know nearly enough about BSE, how it forms, how it spreads, the fact that sheep (with scrapie) have it, elk (CWB) and I thought I caught wind that deer found a way with it as well. We all have deer mixing on a regular basis with our cattle and CWB is a problem that is spreading like a prairie fire despite continuous population wipeouts by people playing God. My point is that prion diseases need to be dealt with now, while everybody goes on and on about their livlihoods in the short term ( get the border open - the meat is safe...) has anyone really looked at, like you said cakadu, long term consequenses of any and all our actions. If prions learn to jump from elk to elk ( they aren't eating each other ), elk to deer, deer to the hundreds of thousands of cattle they run with, heaven forbid, elk, deer,cattle people....
I'm not trying to freak anyone out but I definatly think this thing has not been thought through or taken very seriously by many people and I don't have a hard and fast solution myself other than let's do everything we can to find the bugs that irritate our lives and then find a way to live with them. I do think it starts with testing - from a marketing standpoint in the short term to an actual safety standpoint in the long term. Thanks for listening.

[grassfarmer]

Whiteface, I enjoyed your thoughts particularily about the CWB being the scurge of the prairies! I know you meant to write CWD but hey, it's good to blame the old wheat board for this as well ;0)
Seriously though some people are looking at the causes of BSE. Sheep with scrapie don't have BSE - they have scrapie a similar, but different condition - sheep in the UK have had scrapie cases for hundreds of years and it has not harmed anyone eating the meat, nor has it reached epidemic levels in the sheep flock.
You are right prions don't jump from elk to elk and the elk don't eat each other which points me to the wisdom of Mark Purdeys theory that this prion malfunction is caused by a complex mix of environmental factors.
No cross species transmission of BSE, Scrapie or CWD has ever been proven to my knowledge - nor has BSE to humans (CJD) been proven.
Why is it so hard to believe that we have discovered a "disease" that various types of animals get which affects their brains in a similar way. In sheep it is scrapie, cattle - BSE, humans - CJD . Perhaps in the UK they managed to accidentally transmit or spread the problem through improper rendering practice which caused the epidemic of the "disease" there but the "disease" must have been present initially to be spread through the "infected feed" garbage science theory.

[whiteface]

I don't grow grain and I know little or nothing about the process or the marketing plights other than the CWB has given many of you a really hard time. Glad you were able to see some humor in my typing error.