The Creekstone deal?

[whiteface]

Absolutly the U.S. is afraid of finding another case. Sounds like a few people in Canada may be as well. Why be afraid? Of course we're going to find another case. I'd rather find it than not. Let's deal with it. Let's test them until we can "prove" our feed and SRM safeguards work. Let's test and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that we stand behind our product and will give the consumers (the ones who PAY for the product)what they are asking for. How many of you have gone shopping for a bull and no matter how much the seller sings and dances you will not buy a bull that does't meet your criteria. Not only that, if any of you felt for one second the seller would not stand behind his product you will not buy him, period. I see this every year. It is about giving the PEOPLE THAT WE WANT TO SELL TO what they want. If we're okay with simply selling amongst ourselves fine, don't test, we know it's safe. Point is, we want the export market because we have allowed exports to control us. Until slaughter facilites are built in Canada to accomodate our own cattle we are at the mercy of giving our buyers what they want. As far as the U.S. goes however, they're just makeing us dance because they're control freaks, they like the feeling of power they have and like any bully they have to kick us because for the first time in their history someone else ( Japan) is making them wait and wonder and produce for them something the states doesn't "feel" like producing. I absolutly predict nothing will happen in the way of live exports with the states unless and until they sort out their problems with Japan and that won't happen until the elections in Japan are long over. The allowing of all meats from cattle thirty months and younger I feel is simply a tease and nobody get excited anytime soon. Certainly don't ease up on any pressure you might be putting on the politicians and let's keep driving towards owning our own problem and creating the ability to process and market our own meat in the form of Canadian packing plant(s) and the ability ( permission) to test if that's what the consumer wants and will pay for. You pay more for performance data, color, E.P.D.'s, carcass evaluations, larger scrotums, etc. etc. in your bulls, if the customer wants testing, they get it and they pay for it otherwise if they choose not to pay we don't test and whatever this may evolve into so be it. That's business. Producing the product that people ask for.

[cakadu]

Whiteface that is a good point that you make and welcome to the forum. Always great to see new names and comments coming up.

At some point in time, all that the consumer is demanding has to be paid for by the consumer. It is fast becoming a social issue, not just one where the producer has to bear all of the costs to ensure that the food is safe all through the system. More and more keeps getting downloaded onto the producer with no mention of any extra compensation to them. Yes, keeping a clean, environmentally friendly farm is important, but the majority of food borne illnesses occur after the animal has long left the farm i.e. at the processing plant.

I'm all for food safety and we practice it to the extent that we are able. In the past we have been encouraged to export and once we get this politlical nightmare straightened out, we will be once again. I believe that if you want to export, then you should be held to a higher standard and have more hoops to jump through. If, however, you have no intention of exporting, while food safety remains paramount, you shouldn't be expected to follow the same regimen as someone who is exporting.

The only thing I wonder about with the BSE testing is if we really don't know how it is spread, what really causes it and the fact that we are barely scratching the surface in what we know about it, then isn't testing everything somewhat akin to taking a shotgun and hoping something hits? We need to understand more about this phenomenon so that when we test, we know with a high degree of certainty what it is we are looking for.

I see the testing as a double-edged sword. Yes, we will find more cases and that can be used as an assurance to consumers, but there are groups out there that will take and twist it which could create massive headaches for us.

I often wonder if in our wisdom, when we signed onto the deal about the 7 year moratorium if BSE was found, we were being naive (or arrogant?) because we didn't have it here. Did we really think it would never come back to haunt us oneday? Quite often what seems like a good idea at the time, turns out not to be.

[whiteface]

Thanks for the compliment cakadu and yes, I agree wholeheartedly that sometime decisions made today may come back and bite us in the but later, but we all try to take calculated risks based on as much knowledge as we can muster up at the time. One of the real good reasons I love to see all kinds of producers sharing ideas and bringing their experiences to the table like in these threads. I for one am deathly concerned that we don't know nearly enough about BSE, how it forms, how it spreads, the fact that sheep (with scrapie) have it, elk (CWB) and I thought I caught wind that deer found a way with it as well. We all have deer mixing on a regular basis with our cattle and CWB is a problem that is spreading like a prairie fire despite continuous population wipeouts by people playing God. My point is that prion diseases need to be dealt with now, while everybody goes on and on about their livlihoods in the short term ( get the border open - the meat is safe...) has anyone really looked at, like you said cakadu, long term consequenses of any and all our actions. If prions learn to jump from elk to elk ( they aren't eating each other ), elk to deer, deer to the hundreds of thousands of cattle they run with, heaven forbid, elk, deer,cattle people....
I'm not trying to freak anyone out but I definatly think this thing has not been thought through or taken very seriously by many people and I don't have a hard and fast solution myself other than let's do everything we can to find the bugs that irritate our lives and then find a way to live with them. I do think it starts with testing - from a marketing standpoint in the short term to an actual safety standpoint in the long term. Thanks for listening.

[grassfarmer]

Whiteface, I enjoyed your thoughts particularily about the CWB being the scurge of the prairies! I know you meant to write CWD but hey, it's good to blame the old wheat board for this as well ;0)
Seriously though some people are looking at the causes of BSE. Sheep with scrapie don't have BSE - they have scrapie a similar, but different condition - sheep in the UK have had scrapie cases for hundreds of years and it has not harmed anyone eating the meat, nor has it reached epidemic levels in the sheep flock.
You are right prions don't jump from elk to elk and the elk don't eat each other which points me to the wisdom of Mark Purdeys theory that this prion malfunction is caused by a complex mix of environmental factors.
No cross species transmission of BSE, Scrapie or CWD has ever been proven to my knowledge - nor has BSE to humans (CJD) been proven.
Why is it so hard to believe that we have discovered a "disease" that various types of animals get which affects their brains in a similar way. In sheep it is scrapie, cattle - BSE, humans - CJD . Perhaps in the UK they managed to accidentally transmit or spread the problem through improper rendering practice which caused the epidemic of the "disease" there but the "disease" must have been present initially to be spread through the "infected feed" garbage science theory.

[whiteface]

I don't grow grain and I know little or nothing about the process or the marketing plights other than the CWB has given many of you a really hard time. Glad you were able to see some humor in my typing error.

[whiteface]

The key is in the theories not the facts. There are no cold hard facts. Our CFIA and such have all jumped on the transmisible theory rather than a chemical imbalance assumption. This has been followed by the species leap which is also unproven. Hand this BS to the media and the politicians, and what have you got.

I was just watching W Five and they where showing some graphic photos of inspected and uninspected bad meat. Too bad they don't have the gonads to add that our society has made food such a cheap part of our daily spending that it has driven these desperate people to these levels. Also interesting how the Americans have disallowed downers from the food chain while Canada has not. I have been in the cattle business (BEEF) all of my life (almost 30 years) and have yet to attempt to sell a downer animal. Would it really cost the industry that much if we stopped downers from entering the food chain, or does the milk marketing board have something to do with this decision?

Once again I agree with whiteface and say, test cattle for BSE if it helps to sell them. Decisions are being made with far less common sense than this, and it will be a cold day in hell before we change the crap that the CFIA is preaching about BSE.

[cowman]

I agree 100% with the test. Definitely as a marketing tool and partly for food safety. Lets find out just what is out there? If everything was tested, there is no health issue as the positives would be removed from the food chain. How many $ does it cost us to remove the SRMs? I would imagine a whole lot more than an $18 test? Japan does not remove the SRMs...just does the test.
The show on W5 was sort of disgusting. Anyone who has ever worked in the packing industry knows it isn't something that is very pretty, and if people ever had a clue they might never eat meat again. The show basically slammed the Ontario meat industry but it isn't much better here. Value chain knows this when he talks about the provincial plants(which can be really bad), but he also knows the federal inspected plants aren't exactly perfect either? You hear things through the g****vine all the time...especially about a certain packer in southern Alberta? How often the meat inspection can be "favorable" and the vet gets a "bonus"?
I've personally seen meat that was "condemned" become suddenly "acceptable" after a closed door meeting with the vet? As I said if you ever worked in one of these plants you'd know what a dirty crooked business it is.

[blackjack]

Another reason we need to test is if a North American human does come down with CvJD our industry will be toast! If the science theory is right all the cattle born prior to 1997 should be pretty much gone through the system in the next five to seven years. The positive BSE results after this time, in theory should be eliminated. Why not for a change be proactive instead of reactive!

[magpie]

Gentlemen has everyone forgot the thread on Sunday Peter Warren talk radio Feb. 19 where he talked about this book that this doctor was writing about how this book was going to go worldwide? If I remember correctly this was going to have major implications on the processing industry, as he was saying that the prion that causes BSE occurs naturally and he could prove it by studying some cannibal tribe. Now the way I see this unfolding, if this scientist has been able to discover the connection to BSE and humans we will have to test. I think the book comes out in may.

[grassfarmer]

I don't doubt there is a "natural source" of BSE and someone will identify it someday. I assume the tribe of cannibals mentioned were the ones in Papua, New Guinea. Mark Purdey has visited there and was interested to find that although cannibilism took place among many of the island tribes only one tribe had a high incidence of CJD (That is the original human CJD not the "varient" CJD that has been spuriously linked to BSE. He was interested to find that they used metallic food bowls made out of the fuselage of downed aircraft from WW2. He found these metals plane parts contained high levels of the specific elements he suspects of causing BSE in cattle.

[nerves]

grassfarmer very interesting I heard a dentist talking on the radio a while back about magnesium poisoning and how people working in a mine in Austalia developed symptoms simular to mad cow. They had another name for it I don"t remember, but he seemed to think it could very well be realated. He also mention what you had just stated.

[rsomer]

Skeeter: Your comments are right on. Testing does not make beef any safer.

The issue is not food safety because our beef is safe. How do we know it is safe? Because the same people that pointed out the possible, underline possible, link between BSE and CJD also tell us that North American is taking the necessary steps to ensure a safe beef supply . Those people are the scientists. Producers, consumers, and governments cannot on the one hand choose to believe that there is a potential link between BSE and CJD and then disregard advice from the same people when they say North American beef is safe. Our beef is safe, period.

Companies like Creekstone are only interested in their bottom line. Countries like Japan are equally only interested in their political agenda. The United States takes second place to no one when it comes to protecting their own interests. And the beef producer is at the bottom of all this mess.

Yes our beef industry is beat up pretty bad and like a whipped puppy is cowering and willing to do anything the bullies tell us. But now, more than ever, is the time we need to stick to our guns. And in this fight the science is our "guns". If we throw down our guns, put our hands in the air and say don’t shoot we will test our beef don’t be surprised if the Japanese shoot us anyway because the issue never was food safety.

As an industry, beef producers have to stick with the science or we will be at the mercy of any government, any group, or even company like Creekstone that sees their interests advanced by raising unfounded allegations about our beef product.

[cakadu]

rsomer I can certainly understand and agree with your points and wonder when it will actually stop.

Domestically, I don't see consumers rushing out en masse to demand that the beef be tested. In fact, from what I see just the opposite is true. They are supporting their beef industry by buying more. What the reasons are for the increase in consumption are likely quite varied - Dr. Atkins be praised for some of it I suppose.

We have all kinds of tests these days that tell us our predisposition to certain cancers, hodgkins etc.. I asked the dr. about it and he said one should get tested only if they are prepared to deal with the results. He told me that people have to ask themselves how it will affect the quality of their lives knowing that they carry these genes. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will get it, just that you are predisposed.

The Japanese test because they covered it up and consumer confidence was completely eroded - they had no choice but to do it.

I am not saying that we should be for or against testing - just that we need to decide how we are going to deal with the results. Will it be something that is welcomed by consumers and purchasers of our products or will it do harm in the sense that the more we find (potentially) the more at risk people feel? It makes sense to test only if we know specifically what to look for and once we do test, we are prepared to deal with the results.

[rsomer]

I just received this clip from Animalnet. U.S. and Canada have similar positions vis a vis testing and the NCBA comments pasted below are equally relevant for Canada and Canadian beef producers.

NCBA statement: Trade negotiations and private testing issues
April 19, 2004
National Cattlemen’s Beef Association
Jan Lyons, Kansas Cattle Producer and NCBA President
http://www.beef.org/dsp/dsp_content.cfm?locationId=45&contentTypeId=2&cont entId=2603
“On behalf of America’s beef producers, we believe it is critically important the U.S. government retain oversight for animal health and food safety, as well as international trade negotiations as we try to regain access to export markets that closed to U.S. beef after the December 23 discovery of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE). The recent debate over private testing for BSE as a marketing tool continues to disrupt government-to-government discussions on restoring trade for U.S. beef, impose economic stress on our cattlemen and undermine consumer confidence in a safe product.
“We cannot compromise the science that serves as the basis for food safety and global trade of safe food. A departure from science-based decision making would create a precedent for future regulations and trade demands that would negatively impact U.S. cattlemen without protecting public or animal health.
“Testing of all cattle is not scientifically justified. The world’s leading experts in animal health and risk analysis, including the World Organization for Animal Health and the USDA’s International Review Team, have agreed that testing all cattle does not provide additional protection for consumers. The International Review Team report commissioned by USDA states, ‘the subcommittee considers testing of all cattle slaughtered for human consumption to be unjustified in terms of protecting human and animal health.’ The multiple firewalls erected over the past 15 years to protect our food supply from this disease – including the feed ban, surveillance system and removal of specified risk material from the food supply – ensures we continue to produce safe beef for consumers here and abroad.
“Internationally recognized scientific standards must be the guidepost for food safety and trade decisions. Allowing private companies to use testing as a “marketing” tool, before the government first establishes the framework for trade based upon science, will place undue costs on cattlemen without producing additional protections for consumers and our animal herds. Resources spent on this unwarranted effort will take resources away from efforts that do improve the safety of our food supply and the health of our cattle.
“Testing is not a simple marketing decision that will only impact those who decide to surrender to this unjustified request in order to gain access to export markets. Japan did not ban beef just from one company. It banned all beef from the United States. If one market requires 100 percent testing, all cattle in the U.S. would have to follow this standard because products from the majority of cattle harvested in the United States are exported. This unwarranted testing would become the standard for doing business, and the cost will be born by U.S. cattle producers. This is a decision that affects the entire industry. Therefore, it is critical the U.S. government establish the parameters by which U.S. beef can be exported.
“Furthermore, the U.S. beef industry is the largest sector of agriculture and one of the largest sectors of the U.S. economy. The use of sensitive BSE testing methods without adequate security and oversight raises the real risk that rumors of potential false-positives would negatively impact the nation’s economy and unnecessarily alarm consumers, risking thousands of jobs and billions of dollars. Cattlemen don’t need to relive December 23 due to an unchecked rumor.
“America’s beef producers are committed to producing the safest beef in the world. The beef we produce is not only served in homes around the world, it’s served in our own homes to our own families. That’s why we strongly support a targeted BSE testing program that tests older animals and those in high-risk categories that are susceptible to this disease. We simply want science to establish the standard for international trade.”

[cowman]

rsomer: I find it amazing that you continue to support the American gospel on "science" when in fact they disregard that very science. I think you might agree they don't practice what they preach? Because if they did the border would have been open to Canadian cattle a long time ago?
I continue to be amazed by American two faced approach to just about everything in the world. Why is there one set of rules for America and another set for everyone else? Why can America impose its will on just about everything while they blatantly break all the rules?
A clear example would be nuclear weapons. Why is it that America can tell other countries they can't have nuclear weapons and yet America can? Lets not forget the only country in the world that has ever used nuclear weapons on people was America!