Hay problems

[grassfarmer]

I had a load of Alfalfa hay delivered in yesterday from one of the big dealers in the south that advertise in the Central Alberta papers. Good hay but when I check weighed a sample of the bales I reckoned the billed weight was probably 12-13% higher than what I actually received.
Let's just say the guy will get a surprise when he goes to cash his cheque.
Is this common practise? have any of you had this experience before? I think it is a really low trick given the current state of cattle producers finances. I hope that lots of other people without weigh scales aren't getting cheated the same way.

[cswilson]

It happens lots believe me-beware of loads arriving at night-cash only deals etc they usually end up bad. We have a couple hay brokers that we pretty much deal with-they are honest and deliver what they say they will. We usually take a test load when dealing with a new seller than go from there. From the sellers point of view they get burned with bad cheques etc. also. The absolute worst outfit to buy feed from is Heartland out of North Battleford-can't return calls, do not stand behind product,don't deliver on time-can't wauit till they go broke and someone else buys them.

[blackjack]

grassfarmer... drought of 2002 was the first time I ever had to buy hay and straw. Bought from three different places ... same thing bales lighter than bill slip ... you would have thought at 160 bucks a ton they could have been at least honest with their weights! Lucky this past year raised enough hay of my own and found straw close to home.I guess the big thing about farmers... BUYER BEWARE!

[cowman]

Just have to ask...How can you make any money buying hay? Anytime I ever bought any it always seemed like a losing proposition? I mean hay at $160/ton? Seems to me just about anything should grow 2 tons/acre? I've had well fertilized land push over 5 tons with 2 cuts. Now how can anyone justify grazing cows on that kind of land?
I realize you aren't paying $160/ton this year, but it has to be in that $70/$80 range? And worst of all how much does trucking add to the overall cost?

[Muttley]

I bought hay from a broker a couple of winters ago. I to found the bales not weighing what I was told. When I contacted the broker he stated that for a accurate weigh I need to weigh the whole load as that is what I paid on.
After making many trips to the elevator one at a time with my pick up I figured maybe the broker wasn't so far off. After weighing a bunch this way my average weight jumped up about 50 lbs. a bale.

[cakadu]

In 2002, during those astronomical prices, we had to buy hay just like everyone else. The fellow we were negotiating with said that the bales easily weighed 1500 to 1600 lbs, which they LOOKED like they could, but my husband insisted that they were likely less. The guy had 2 of them weighed and between the 2, they weighed just slightly over 2400 lbs. Needless to say, he had to adjust his price a little bit.

This past winter when we got the hay trucked in, we had it all scaled (there is a custom seed outfit not too far away, so they can weigh there). It was fairly close to what we had dealt on and the fellow was very decent about it. We paid the trucker a little extra for his trouble and everyone went away happy knowing that they got the best deal. We'll likely buy hay from this fellow again.

Sadly, there are people waiting to take advantage, no matter what the adversity.

[cswilson]

Actually if u use hay as the only ration component it is too expensive to buy or grow. By buying all our feed we are very flexible in what our wintering ration consists of. The feed needs of a May calving british cow are totally different from a cow (of any kind) calving earliar. We really noticed this when we had those March calved pairs to feed this spring. We made the decision after doing our income tax one spring I added up fuel,repairs,depreciation-the total would of almost purchased all the feed we needed. We took our hay land turned it into pasture-doubled cow numbers and carried on from there-trust me we aren't going back either. By the way the most we've had to pay for hay (EVER) is $110 a ton for dairy quality hay trucked 420 miles. We use that type of hay as a supplement when cows are on leftover grass.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, how can I afford to buy hay? well it's a damn site cheaper than buying land at $1200 / acre to grow hay on. I think you are remembering the good old days when you got 5 tons to the acre and the fact that "almost anything will grow 2 tons to the acre" is patently nonsense given the recent droughts. More like 2 bales to the acre at maybe 1100lbs each in this area - and what about the areas that got no hay off their hayfields in 2002? I think if you factor in the land costs(interest), machinery and production costs and weather risk you could buy cheaper than grow. I'm glad with my choice of buying in - at least I wasn't making payments in 2002 on hay machinery that was never used as well as buying in $160/ton hay.

I agree with cswilson, hay is only part of my ration I use plenty straw, silage or whatever is available to cheapen rations. This good alfalfa I bought is the dearest I've had all winter at $90 delivered but it works well for my Mid April onwards calving cows. They are being limit fed alfalfa and some (cheaper) straight timothy with a ring of ad lib straw available to top up on and they are in excellent condition. They started the winter on 1/3 silage ( last years canola silage my own grass silage mixed) and 2/3 straw. Containing winter feed costs is the biggest factor I can control in my beef production system.

[cakadu]

Cowman, what did the well fertilized hay that you grew actually cost you? With rising fertilizer costs, in addition to the other fixed costs that grassfarmer has factored in, it could be some pretty expensive hay that is being grown.

From time to time you've given your costs of production and it is great that you know them, as many producers do not know what it actually costs them to produce whatever it is they are producing.

One way to minimize your risk is to know what your costs are. $160/ton for hay was hopefully an anomaly because no one could stay in business at those prices - eventually even the sellers would go broke because there would be no one around to buy it.

You wouldn't get land around here for $1,200 per acre - it is far more dear than that and it's anyone's guess or not as to whether the land values are actually going to drop. All I know is that land is getting ever more expensive along the Highway #2 corridor and soon it will be out of reach for any kind of production.

Produce it or buy it - each has their pros and cons.

[cswilson]

The real funny thing is when you get guys paying crazy prices for grazing-it is your total cost of production that matters not so much what it is comprised of. There are guys I know who graze out year round in the U.S. who have higher production costs than I do because they paid too much for their grass. When you total all your costs sometimes a feedlot isn't all that bad a place for your calves.

[cowman]

Well I definitely have to agree with Linda about this land along Highway 2...it is way to expensive to grow feed or grass or grain on...maybe dope??? I doubt $2000/acre would touch the very worst!
And I will agree with you grassfarmer that 5 tons is pretty tough to get anymore because it is so dry, but I did get 762 1250 lb. bales on 147 acres last year...no fertilizer! Sub irrigated land...a nice way of saying an old lake bed.
I don't know if you have to have the newest haying equipment available...and Lord knows parts are out of this world!
I just know that even in 2002 I had a decent year because I didn't have to go out and buy a lot of feed. When hay was $40/ton it made a lot of sense to buy it but when it gets up to $80/$90 I think it gets a lot tougher to make a buck on cattle?
Plus I am a firm believer in a lot of straw...good straw...my cousin has one of those chaff savers, blows it right on top of the windrow, baler right behind the combine. So for me free straw goes a long way...in fact I sold some hay right in the field...$50/bale..works out to around $90 ton?
And yet having said all that, it still cost me over $90 a ton because I could have sold it all for that...plus I had to haul the darned stuff home 2 miles!
Now without a doubt it sure would be nice to spend the summer at the beach or something, but for me it sort of works...actually it is still a losing propostion because no way am I getting a fair return on my land. So it still sucks but not as bad as grassing cows on? And in the end any money I made was wasted keeping my losing cows fed! What can you do?

[amazed]

I suppose a person could always move on to something else and leave the cattle business to the people who want to try and make a go of it.

[cswilson]

Tears have never made a hay crop!!!!!!

[grassfarmer]

Got my hay problem sorted out - the excuse was they mixed up weigh tickets and then wrote the wrong weights on the bills. Yeah right !! I wonder if I hadn't stopped the cheque, or weighed the bales if they would have corrected their mistake - me thinks not!

[cakadu]

Alls well that ends well, so glad to hear you got it sorted out grassfarmer.