Meeting with Cam Ostercamp

[rusty1]

I'm sure you could get Liberal running Ted HAnney to carrie he cause down east. Try it.

[rusty1]

Next meeting on June 7 at 7:00pm at Hirche Herefords in High River with Cam Ostercamp. Bring a bus load.

[rusty1]

Meeting may be a bit of an understatement!
My estimate at this point is for 500 to 800 cattle producers. New Generation Co-ops, government,NFU,media, bankers,
and on and on.
This meeting is not only about the Essay, it is about the name of this new organization of grassroots producers,
BEEF INITIATIVES GROUP. B.I.G.
Bring your ideas!!!!!!!!!!

[rsomer]

With due respect to Cam Ostercamp and the contributors to this thread there are some things about Mr. Ostercamp’s essay that need to be pointed out.

I have read the essay carefully many times and have given it considerable thought. Mr. Ostercamp’s essay is based on an unspecified assumption. That assumption is the border will not open for 7 years. I for one do not believe it will take that long to see the border open, as a result I see the essay offers desperate producers only hope but no substance or practical solutions. RpKaiser, you said bring your ideas. I hope you can accept that my ideas are different than Cam Ostercamp’s.

1. It needs to be pointed out once again that 100% testing will not sell one more animal. Our packers are running at 100% capacity and are able to market all their production at top prices. We do have a problem with a lack of sufficient packing plant capacity, not a problem with a lack of export markets. There is a good market for every animal we can get the hide off of. Cam Ostercamp correctly identifies this problem but goes on to incorrectly assume that the bigger problem is a lack of markets due to a lack of BSE testing.
We have markets for all our under 30 months of age beef if we could get them slaughtered. Canadians can consume domestically our cow slaughter if we don’t import any beef. The Canadian consumer market for our beef remains strong without 100% testing although we do remove the SRMs from every animal over 30 months. There is just not enough packing plants on this side of the border.

2. There is only one reason we have lost any of our export markets, politics and protectionism. Testing will not fix that basic problem. Japan would still resist buying our beef even if tested. However much protectionist countries like Japan want to blame the consumers for Japan's trade action, as long as Japan has a 50% tariff on beef imports the real reason is obvious. Cam is in error when he says Canada had 25% of the Japanese market before BSE, the correct number is 2.5%. Canada never had an important share of the Japanese market before our single case of BSE. There is no reason to believe we can grab market share from established competitors now that we are carrying the burden of this BSE cow, test or no test.

3. Rusty1 would point out how desperately the feedlots need the cash injections they received from government. Cam Ostercamp would have spent that money on testing labs. We would have had labs but no cattle producers. When you are swimming for a far off shore you still need to keep your head above water. Otherwise you drown.

4. Cam Ostercamp offers as a solution lessening our dependence upon the U.S. and seeking other markets instead, correctly pointing out that as much as 72% of beef is exported and 70% of that goes to the U.S. If Mr. Ostercamp checked he would see that about 70% of all Canadian exports go to the U.S. not just beef but manufactured goods, lumber, iron ore, you name it. The reason is NAFTA which provides us a market for our products but more importantly gives the U.S. preferential access to our markets. This effectively limits the ability of other potential non NAFTA customers to trade with us. These countries will not buy our beef if they cannot sell us their cars and electronics. It is not coincidence that prior to BSE 2.5% of our beef went to Japan and 2.5% of Japan’s cars came to Canada. That is how international trade works. Ever hear of balance of trade? Countries trade with countries that trade with them. NAFTA restricts our ability to accept imports from non NAFTA countries, thereby restricting our ability to sell these countries our goods such as beef. As long as we have NAFTA the U.S. and Mexico will be our major customers for beef.

5. Cam Ostercamp incorrectly suggests that if we test 100% the OIE will hasten to declare Canada BSE free. Not so. Presently no country in the world is BSE free as there has not been sufficient time since the ban on feeding ruminant protein to eliminate the possibility of a BSE cow anywhere. There are countries that are provisionally free and NAFTA is proposing a change to OIE rules that would see Canada be classified as minimal risk. Our present surveillance testing is satisfactory to monitor our BSE status and is accepted by all nations worldwide who are members of the OIE, including Japan.

I could go on. Bottom line is we do need to focus on the short term so we can survive as an industry to build the long term solutions. In order to survive in the short term we need to reopen the border to the only country in the world that offers any hope of accepting our live cattle, the U.S. If Canada insists on poking the bear with a 100% testing stick it is not going to help achieve that goal.

I for one can’t wait seven years for Mr. Ostercamp’s solution.

[gwf]

To rsomer:
Have you ever picked up the phone and talked to Cam Ostercamp? He is very easy to talk to and has never claimed to have all the answers, but he is tired of the complacency that exists among producers and those whose survival is now at risk. Would you have written, and expressed your opinion had Cam not written his essay? I have talked to Cam, on several occasions and I know he is convinced, as a great many others are, that the industry cannot continue the way things are going. You are not alone in suggesting that the solution is the opening of the US border to Canadian beef products. This is the rationale of the ABP, CCA, and the Federal and Provincial Governments, so you are in good company. What is your solution to the problem if the US border doesn’t open for another six months, a year, or two years?

[rsomer]

gwf: I believe there is only one solution. Let me make some observations first. The Canadian beef industry is in a crisis. Beef production is an essential primary industry for Canada and an important source of exports. The American response to our single case of BSE and their delay in reopening the border to live cattle under 30 months of age is more political than science. Underlying the U.S. reaction and the closing of our mutual border in the face of our international trading agreements such as NAFTA is retaliation for a sovereign Canadian decision not to participate in the war in Iraq. As such the reopening of the border to our live cattle goes far beyond beef to include NAFTA, the overall economy, and the ability of a medium power such as Canada to make sovereign decisions on foreign policy.

I believe the federal and provincial governments should immediately undertake to see the construction of packing plants throughout the country. I believe it is a matter of national importance that this be done. I doubt if anything like this has been done before except maybe in times of war but we are in a war, and the future ability of our country to be a sovereign nation that can make decisions on issues such as Iraq is in the balance.

I question whether private enterprise can see their way through to build the needed packing plant capacity in time. I believe the beef industry is far to uncertain right now to attract the needed private investment. I see the need for government to 100% finance the construction of these plants. It is very possible that the border will open before the plants are built but they are still needed. The future of our industry cannot depend on shipping live cattle south.

That is my solution. Governments immediately provide 100% financing for the construction of more packing plants. Ground breaking for those plants should begin this month. These plants are desperately needed. It is a crisis and too much time has been lost already. We are getting past the time when more subsidies to producers is the answer. If governments were to provide the needed financing, we have the entrepreneurial talent in this country to see the plants be successful. For governments to sit back and say the financing for these plants should come from within the industry is folly, there is no money left in producers hands and our governments have not provided a secure business environment that would entice private investors and lending institutions to participate. If governments see the need to provide subsidies to producers in order to save a vital Canadian industry then there is reason to hope that they would see the need to provide 100% financing to see more packing plants built immediately.

[rsomer]

I would like to challenge your points numbered 1,2,3 rsomer, but why? You have your opinion, and that is comendible.

I really like your point about what to do now! Get the Government to build plants starting today.

I don't know where you live rsomer, but I would like to invite you to a meeting of an estimated 800 to 1000 beef producers, POLITICIANS, bankers etc. etc. to voice your opinion.
This meeting will be about ideas, and you seem to have some very good ones.

[pandiana]

I also have read and re-read the Ostercamp essay. The topics and solutions covered herein have been for the most part discussed ad nauseum on this forum and I don't think there is too much new. What Mr. Ostercamp has done, I believe, is that he has organized his thoughts into a comprehensive and compelling argument in support of the cattle industry in a very readable text. This is something that has been sorely needed...a way to bring a focus to the emotion that is building out their.

I guess what surprises me, rsomer, is your negative response. Other than the issue of testing 100% of cattle, I can't really see how the two of you differ all that much.

I happen to think the testing issue is a non-issue. If it was implemented (allowed?), the logistics would immediately dictate that we would require the killing capacity in Canada. If some plants opted for 100% testing as is proposed for the Grand Prairie facility, the market would decide if it was economically expedient. If as you contend there are markets for our beef without, this would soon become evident. However, if some niche markets want 100% tested, organic, or whatever, let the market decide.

I totally agree that in order to get the immediate help required we must once again rely on government to finance packing facility construction if we are to save this industry. On the other hand, whether in the throws of an election are after, can we expect any government to act quickly enough. I think the reason most people are still banking on the border opening is because they realize even if it takes 7 years for re-opening the border, the government could still be playing political football before funding these enterprises. The add environmental surveys, NIMBY's etc. and I can't see how this could come together quick enough to save producers. Has anyone heard ANY reference to agriculture let alone livestock in the various platforms todate?

[kato]

If this new group does only one thing, and that is to focus attention back on the problems we face, then it has been a roaring sucess, in my opinion. In all the ranting and raving over this election, I haven't heard the word agriculture, let alone cattle mentioned even once.

We don't have to agree on everything in the essay, but I'm sure we all agree that something has to change. We can't carry on like this much longer.

I agree 100% testing isn't the cure all, but, if smaller plants, especially producer owned ones were allowed to test if they wanted, they would have the means to compete with the big boys in the export market.

If the big plants don't want to do it, then that's up to them, but don't stop the smaller independants. Anything, no matter how small, that helps develop new markets has to be a good thing in the long run.

The sad fact is we have no leverage. Our politicians are afraid of the Amercians, and will submit, rather than risk the ire of the superpower to the south.

This has gone beyond beef, and is drifting into the realm of national sovereignty. If our country can't make independant decisions based on situations within it's borders, then we really aren't an independant country at all, are we?

American doesn't need to invade Canada, it already owns it.

[kato]

Me again.. Can't make it to the meeting, but sure wish I could. Way to far away.

So, I'll stick my two cents in here, if that's OK.

These are my ideas, for what they're worth.

1. Maybe put Canadian in front of the BIG.. C-Big?

2. Actively solicit input from producers all across the country. We really need a national voice, or else we risk becoming another local group easily ignored. Ontario sounds like it's going to be a hot one in the election, and if producers from down there got on board, someone might actually listen. Anyone who is interviewed by the media should emphasise that this is a national thing.

3. Actively solicit support from grain farmers. They have a great deal to lose if the cattle industry goes down. Besides the loss of market for feed grain, there will be a lot of pasture and hayland put back into grain, which will certainly not help them. You don't have to increase acreage much to depress the prices.

4. I don't think our politicians realize just how much the (especially) western economy rides on the beef industry. Emphasize the domino effect. Call on small rural businesses all over the country to join in.

5. MAKE LOTS OF NOISE!

Good luck, hope to see it on the National.

[rsomer]

My concerns about testing... I think as an industry we have only a limited ability to influence government. Right now the industry sees three solutions to our crisis. The first is to have the border open to live cattle, and longer term to increase packing plant capacity and increase/protect markets by 100% testing. To some extent industry is viewing the threat of more packing plants and 100% testing as a means to achieve the first objective, opening the border.

I am concerned that as an industry we are squandering energy and resources pursuing 100% testing when there is not a hope in Hades that it will happen. North American testing protocols are being hammered out right now in Japan with the U.S. Canada will follow whatever comes out of those discussions, maybe we will end up testing more than is planned now but I doubt it based on the U.S. position.

Our NAFTA commitments prevent Canada from unilaterally pursuing 100% testing. We are tied in, we are harmonized with the U.S. That is not to say that is right, or that it is right that the U.S. is unreasonably blocking our young feeders from their market but that is reality. The U.S. has Canada and our beef industry on a very short lease at the moment. 100% testing is not a decision we can make on our own. Beating the bushes drumming up support amongst producers for 100% testing is a diversion from doing what would really make a difference, build more packing plants. That is something we can do within NAFTA and we all agree that it is necessary for the long term good of our industry. It is easier for the U.S. to block our live cattle than to block our beef, we need to make that change so they can’t keep beating us up.

100% testing is not a doable option that will provide a competitive advantage for our new packing plants. The USDA blocked Creekstone, the CFIA will block any Canadian plant proposing to do the same. Maybe that is BS but that is how it is. But if the governments of this country would provide financing for new packing plants, that provides the competitive edge these new plants need to survive and prosper. If government is uncomfortable providing financing, provide 100% loan guarantees for producer investors. Those are things that can be done within NAFTA and they would cause needed changes to our industry to take place. We need to concentrate on what is possible (build more packing plants). Dreaming of the impossible (100% testing) is a waste.

[rsomer]

Dreaming of the impossible 100% testing.

I don't beleive that testing is neccessary at all. I beleive that following one untruth with another,
is not the answer for society or mankind in general.
BSE is not an infectious disease!!!!
And does not deserve anywhere near the attention it has attracted.

However human beings are steeped in culture, and protocal, and follow ideas based on truth as well as lies.

The world has begun to follow an idea that BSE is a hyper infectious disease, and it is out of control.

Consumers control governments in all the free world which is becoming a larger portion of the world every day.
We are caught up in a bogus theory about an infectious disease problem and the world is eating it up, (or not eating it up) based on this theory.

We, as an exporting beef country need to deal with this issue, and my dream, which I know will take a very long time to come true, is to wipe out the infectious disease theory and replace it with the truth. That is another story.

In the mean time, rsomer. Okay lets not make this a manditory 100% thing. But why would we hold back businesses from dealing with countries steeped in culture and protocol which may save even a few forward thinking producers?

This is only a small part of what this movement of people is all about, and once again, I challenge you rsomer to come up with something new.
I hope you have started a following of people who are lobbying the government for government owned packing plants.
If you have, put my name down as a supporter and tell me where to show my shiny little bald head.

[kato]

If the government stepped in a built a bunch of plants someone down south would find a way to scream subsidy and lay the boots to us again.

Government financing would be another story. We should pursue that agressively.

I also agree that testing is unnecessary, but then again so is a closed border under the current rules. It's not necessary scientifically, but science left the house a long time ago. We gotta do what we gotta do. No one should be stopped from testing if they want to, especially if it's the only way to sell to certain customers.

Just look at the Europeans and implants. There's no science to say implants are unsafe, but you still can't sell beef in Europe that's had an implant. This scenario has been playing out for years, and looks like it will never end.

We don't want the BSE thing to turn into that.

[whiteface]

I've just got to ask, rsomer, when we put CCIA tags in and they (meaning the US) didn't did you freak out then saying "omigod, we might be violating something with the almighty US, THEY'RE not putting in a traceback system!!" or how about their extensive private health care, we in Canada just tax harder to support every runny nose and people who abuse that system. My point is, why the hell do we have to cater to exactly what the US tells us to? Last time I checked we were still a different country with a few ( maybe not many) different ways to do things and certainly we don't want to position ourselves as a country even MORE dependant on them for something even as simple as decision making...hell you've got them telling us where to sit, when to shit and please may we even be allowed to breath...#@%%#@$! them! Not only would they do the same to us and every other person on the planet (hence why they are the most terrorized country in the world with their arrogant ways of dealing with people) they in fact are doing this to us as we speak with their unfair border based on science. They can shove their science right up their ##@@$! I'm with rpkaiser, YOU give me a viable soluion rsomer, and not another fuzzy border opening prediction like the politicians keep feeding us, but a solution that WE can own as a country and take responsibility for our own problems. The US is not going to help us, they will open the border to Canadian cattle IF and ONLY when they can re-market it to Japan for a million percent markup. The hell with them or anyone stealing our cattle, starving our producers and reaping the rewards off our raw product. Now its time for us as a nation to look ahead for our own lives. They had their chance and blew it. Now I ask, forget the border, ain't gonna happen, what do you think is the solution, short and long term and what should we go to the meeting with for ideas and suggestions. I'm ready to suggest you move to the states, rsomer, you're so concerned about what they want. What about what WE want. Time to team together for CANADA and our industry. No hard feeling here rsomer, just hard questions, let's have some answers, we've spent enough time bitching.

[jensend]

thank you whiteface. i agree that it's time we assumed responsibility. we will need the american market but all this noise that testing won't guarantee we get into japan is an excuse to do nothing. not testing isn't getting us anywhere either. the us is ramping up their testing and have held us back so that they can look good to the rest of the world. we have been manipulated for long enough and we will lose again because we didn't have the balls to make a decision. i think we're all tired of these rosy predictions. it's like saying it's too dry to seed and then watching the neighbour seed his crop before the rain and you're screwed afterwards seeding cheap greenfeed. the guy who gets it done gets rewarded.