Meeting with Cam Ostercamp

[rsomer]

You all should know I am with you in this 100%. I understand your frustration and share your sense of urgency. I completely relate to everyone that wants to see action on BSE and completely agree that there is a lot of BS going on out there that has nothing to do with science. I do think we need to channel our frustration and what energy remains into something that has at least a shadow of a chance of success. I think we need to be aware that BSE is a sensitive issue at the best of times and we have been extremely fortunate up to now that our consumers have stayed with us all the way. I am trying to point out that right or wrong, 100% testing is not something that has any chance of success with government. Canada is 100% committed to a harmonized North American beef market and that is just how it is. On top of that producers raising the issue of 100% testing before the media has the potential to erode customer confidence in our product, that is something we cannot afford to have happen. I recall Joe-2 and his sign that would read "Eating BSE Infected Beef CAN Cause Fatal vCJD.DEMAND 100% TESTING". Producers may think their demands for 100% testing are to open markets for their beef but the public is going to going to get Joe-2’s message when they see it on the news.

I have seen that obtaining financing is what is keeping more packing plants from being built in Canada and have offered as a solution that governments provide the needed financing or guarantees that would see these projects go ahead. In my time I have championed more than one hopeless cause but a hopeless cause like 100% testing has way too many negative aspects associated with it for us as an industry to be championing at this time. We need to focus our frustration on those things which can be done. Building packing plants is one, pressuring the government to do more to see our border open to live cattle during this election is another. This meeting or rally that is proposed is a good idea but we have to be very careful about the messages that come out of it. We need to be focused as an industry on asking for one or two things that can really be done and realize that if the media is there that the public/customer is watching, not just government.

Jensend: Many of use believe that our case of BSE was a spontaneous occurrence. If so then Australia would also have spontaneous occurrences only they are not looking very hard to find it. If BSE can happen in Canada it can happen anywhere. Our beef is just as safe as theirs.

[kato]

I spoke with a vet from the CFIA about testing, and he said that every country that has actually looked for BSE has found it.

Australia is not looking very hard.

My main point is that if we don't stand up for ourselves we are done for. No one else seems willing to go to bat for us, so what else do we do? Give up? I don't think so, not without a fight.

BTW Today on the news they reported that the Western Diversification Fund, and Farm Credit have both turned down the Rancher's Choice slaughter facility proposal in Winnipeg.

As you can see, no one else is looking out for us, we have to do it ourselves.

Our consumers are not dumb. In fact, after the last year, I would say they are about the smartest ones in the whole wide world.

They know that the beef is safe.

They also know that we are dealing with a tough world that will do whatever it takes to shut us out, and we have to play hardball to get any changes made.

[kato]

You sure do write well rsomer, too bad you can't read.

[kato]

Oh yea... on the subject of bilateral agreements.

If my memory serves me correctly, did we or did we not relax the restrictions on bone in beef from the States the same day that they relaxed them for our beef.

And if my memory serves me correctly, did they not renege on their side of the deal?

And if my memory serves me correctly, we kept our side of the deal.

Another point for the meeting... any relaxations we have put on the import of American beef should be suspended until they are equal going both ways across the border.

Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. I think we all know who is more equal, and it's sure not us.

[jensend]

rsomer - i agree wholeheartedly with you that the aussies are doing their best not to find bse but as long as they successfully keep up the charade they can't be challenged. the japanese cannot justifiably ask the australians to 100% test intil there is a case discovered down under. i am sure you and i can disagree on the way out of this in many ways but the paradigm has changed. we are not bse free or even minimal risk for another year. the americans aren't playing by the rules and never will. we can be morally and intellectually superior to r-calf but as soon as we stand up they'll kick us in the crotch and the argument is over. we have to look beyond the usa for markets and let the big three packers open the border for us. we need the american market more than any other for a variety of reasons but we will never again be able to rely on it as we have in the past. there is no time like the present to move on.

[rsomer]

Jensend: I would agree with the provision that we can no longer depend upon the U.S. market for live cattle exports. They opened the border to bone less beef fairly quickly but are playing games with live cattle. The solution is of course build packing plants here and ship the U.S. beef.

There is a lot of competition for those foreign markets. I don't think we can assume they are ours for the taking or that we can compete price wise with competitors such as South America and Australia.

[rsomer]

Just read in the Western Producer June 3 issue page 77 where R-Calf is requesting testing of all Canadian cattle slaughtered for beef destined for the U.S.

I also noted in the same article where the AMI is quoted as saying "Calling Canadian beef unsafe is like calling your twin sister ugly". The Canadian beef supply cannot be attached without calling American beef into question says the AMI.

[rsomer]

The statement from the AMI is awfully nice isn't it. Amazing how free societies work isn't it. One group can say something nice like this while another can say something else.
I say lets give Rcalf what they want this time. I bet there would be groups in the U.S. that would even buy some of that tested beef following the rules of one of the many organizations that seem to make rules such as this. Maybe Creekstone Farms could find an avenue to send Tested Canadian Beef to Japan. Buy boneless tested product from Cargil, who had the testing paid for by the Canadian producer, and send this product to Japanese companies who find rule makers who agree with there process. A little far fetched,,,,,,maybe, but what isn't these days.
I apologize for drawing myself into some personal garbage talk earlier today, but please find something positive to bring to this thread rsomer, and please please hold off from calling it potential for disaster.

[kato]

What IS a potential for disaster is if the Americans find a positive cow, and R-Calf has succeeded in undermining consumer confidence down there, as they seemed to be determined to do.

These guys can't even agree on a whether to have a national ID program, let alone how to do it!

Part of upgrading your status once you become minimal or moderate risk is having traceback ability, and they are dawdling big time on it.

Can you imagine the barriers that will be put up at the border if their market takes the kind of drop in price that ours did? They're not letting us in when times are good, what makes anyone think they'll let us in when times are tough.

We are already way ahead of the States on traceback, and only one year away from dropping to minimal risk again because of the length of our feed ban.

When they get a positive cow, assuming their current triple s policy fails, we will be the ones with the advantage, because it'll take them a long time to get the traceback working.

We need to be set up to take it to the next level quickly if necessary.

Let's stay out front and proactive, because things just could get worse.

[kato]

A bit of interesting reading, possibly a bit of support for the ridiculous notion of testing.
This one person likely has more support lying in waiting than Rcalf.
http://www.drday.com/madcow.htm

[rsomer]

Those in favour of 100% testing of Canadian cattle would be interested in knowing they have a politically influential group on their side. In the same article of the Western Producer I referenced above, R-Calf is wanting the U.S. government to track and test all Canadian cattle residing in the U.S. to determine the actual prevalence of BSE in the American cattle herd. R-Calf estimates there are about 450,000 Canadian animals in the U.S.

[whiteface]

As a purebred breeder, I would absolutly RUN with that idea kato. VERY, VERY strong advantages to being FIRST with anything. Always a couple (sometimes more) bugs to spray with being first but the ADVANTAGES are HUGE. First with new genetics, first with E.P.D.'s, first with websites, first with TT for leptin, first with the TRACEBACK system and FIRST WITH THE OPTION TO TEST FOR BSE AND PERMISSION TO SELL THIS TESTED PRODUCT TO WHOMEVER MAY BE WILLING OR DEMANDING TO BUY IT. Including the states, I can sure see this comeing, R-Calf demanding our beef be tested!!!! What the @#$%## do you think comes out of that - OFF TO JAPAN with a tested "safe" product and a 10000% markup and STILL no BORDER OPENING!! Just steal our meat, let us foot the testing bill, they have no traceback or testing and they come out looking so #@$%% great. Sound far-fetched at all, yeah so did the situation we are in right now sound a year ago. Absolutly CANNOT allow this American control go on any longer. This is our problem and now we deal with it our way, forget asking them to play with us, forget asking them for permission to breathe. I want more packing plants too rsomer, but I also want an end to these control freaks to the south and that means looking for new markets, which means we must be given permission to test and the consumer can decide after that, just like they do with organics, or E.P.D.'s or Ferrari's versus Ford Focus'. Its about choice, its about price paid for product recieved and its about freedom and not communism and now its about #$%#$ time we stood up for ourselves and said something. Grant Hirsche's place is a great place to say something. He's a leader that will do it right, trust me, Grant will not freak anyone out but will lead our industy to place we'ver never seen before and have always wanted to go but no one had the balls to shake any boats. Again, maybe from a purebred breeders point of view, boy, do people ever admire you afterward for being able to accomplish something that no one thought was possible. This can't be done alone and needs everyone's support.

[whiteface]

Are you trying to make this sound like a triator like symptom rsomer. I was told by someone who stayed overnight recently at one of the top Rcalf supporters home, that Rcalf's intention is not to hurt the Canadian Cattle Producers, but to Challenge the system of Cheap Canadian beef flooding into the North Western states from the Multinational Plants in Southern Alberta. Cargil and Lakeside have no alliance to anyone except the mighty dollar, and how can we producers not see the good side of what groups like Rcalf are doing. Looking out for their Producers. I don't support the efforts of Rcalf to keep us out, but do see their veiw.
If we were allowed to look beyond the
American consumer, maybe we could work with our American cousin producers rather than against them. We are, after all, the exporters.
We need to look at our industry very seriously when we sell our product to wholsalers and then retailers, and then spend our own money to advertize and promote it for them. As well, we are somehow responsible for finding markets for these companies overseas, or get blamed when they flood areas of their own country with the product that(lately) they are stealing from us.

[rsomer]

Rpkaiser: I am frankly astounded at your views on R-Calf. You may want to reconsider those views since you are selling breeding stock to the Alberta livestock producer. While I agree that R-Calf is looking out for their producers wishes , they are not looking out for their producers interests. My take on R-Calf is that want to destroy the Canadian beef producer. They want to see us gone. R-Calf wants to see us broke, bankrupt, finished. R-Calf could challenge the system of multi-national plants operating in the U.S. if that is their goal. But their real goal is to at the least stop imports of our product permanently and at best see the Canadian cow calf producer gone thereby creating a market for their calves by selling them north to Canadian feedlots. I see R-Calf’s view all too clearly and I don’t like it one bit.

R-Calf is not looking out for their producers interests because it is in the best interest of all North American producers to see this BSE crisis resolved while keeping consumer confidence. Americans such as R-Calf cannot challenge the safety of our product without making inferences about the safety of their own.

R-Calf’s intention to test all Canadian cattle presently in the U.S. is not to foster confidence in our product thereby creating export opportunities for Canadian producers. They want to find a positive cow so they can keep the border closed even longer.

I think R-Calf believes Canadian producers will not fight to keep their share of any market but will meekly leave the U.S. and either shrink their industry or find some other country that will buy Canadian beef. If that is what R-Calf believes then they do not understand this beef producer. I am not willing to give up or reduce my share of the U.S. market. We paid a price to get into that market and that price was NAFTA. I want to see us say enough is enough and get started building our own packing plant industry. I want to see the North West U.S. packing plant industry put out of business, not Canadian producers put out of business and I want to see Canadians take over that market. I want to see Canadian beef producers focus on building our own packing plant industry so protectionist extremists like R-Calf cannot hold up our industry like bandits stopping the train.

[rsomer]

Kato, you are exactly right. The danger we face with consumer confidence does not lie with testing cattle and truth.
The problem will be when we continue on the path of RCalf and people like rsomer who continue to treat the consumer like he/she needs to be left in the dark. The testing we do in North America is a joke, and some day soon, Joe and Joesy consumer will begin to see that. Most people pay no attention to this kind of thing and trust that their government is looking after it.
Shoot shovel and shut up will never work. There are environmentally caused, and if you choose to beleive,"transmissible" cases of BSE and all SE's all over the world, all the time, and now that people are more aware, they will look more, and find more. USDA and CFIA will never be able to shovel fast enough.

Therefore, the Japanese approach. Make your consumer out to be just as smart, or even smarter than the government, and Test every animal. Slowly but surely this approach will bring back not only confidence in the product, but display the truth at the same time. They have not even adopted the non transmissible approach but are miles ahead in proving that this is the real truth. Supposed 100% testing and strict trade rules still show that this problem exists from time to time, but have also show that the pandemic theory is bogus. According to the transmissible theory, they should have had thousands of cases while they have only had a handful.

One (and only one) situation to dispel the argument for transmission lies in a story from Iceland. Iceland has an area affected by scrapie. This area has been depopulated, fallowed, and reintroduced twice with uninfected sheep. Both times, scrapie has reappeared while no meat and bone meal whatsoever was included in their diet.

Rsomer. You pointed out the Joe2 thread about scaring the public into pushing for testing. Why didn't the picutes and lies told when this first became a problem cause them to push for testing.
Because we followed that one lie with another, and people like yourself continue to beleive that this lieing to the public thing is the way to go.

I would have to agree with kato,and the rest of the Japanese (sorry kato, I couldn't help that play on words) that this is where disaster hides in waiting.