Should we be pursuing the Asian market?

[cakadu]

Leave us not forget that protectionism can happen in many places. Could it be that the reason for requesting 100% testing by the Japanese could is to help protect the Japanese beef farmer? Don't forget they were hard hit when the cows found to have BSE were in the human food chain and the consumer wasn't told in a timely fashion.

Where has there been any guarantee by the Japanese that if we test everything that they will buy? Are there any letters of intent or does a memorandum of understanding exist? Without some sort of even quasi-guarantee, why would we begin to entertain that notion? Didn't we learn anything from the recent blue-tongue and anaplasmosis deal? We went into that thinking that if we relaxed those rules, then surely they would look at opening the border sooner? Who was it who said that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it?

[whiteface]

The arguements why "no test" are valid, but then what, we're "not testing" now and I don't see any cattle crossing the border. What do the "no testers" see as the solution? Because it sure isn't working now. We need the freedom of PERMISSION to test, not mandatory testing but a way for the smaller packers that rsomer wants ( and I want so badly ) to have an OPTION in their marketing to COMPETE with the "big boys" then who gives a shit if the US wants our meat or maybe even Japan for that matter. Smoe consumers want choice and will pay extra for it. That extra does in fact offer competition for the big packers monopoly against us now.

[cakadu]

I am not saying that you are wrong to want what you want whiteface - I would like nothing more than for the border to anywhere to open up yesterday. I may not play in the cattle game, but I sure have seen what I do eroded and hurt because of this continuing struggle.

We always seem to choke on ants while swallowing elephants. If there are consumers out there willing to pay more, then work with that information. Turn it around to work to your advantage - get letters of intent or whatever it will take to make your case to be allowed to test. Go in with the ammunition that you need - solid information that will support what it is you are trying to do.

Having been around the block a few times when it comes to hearing "there are consumers that are willing to pay" or "there are markets out there willing to buy" -- which don't come to fruition, change that scenario. Come back with several letters of intent from these various consumers/countries/new markets and use those as a solid basis from which to lobby. Nebulous ideas don't pack much weight, but if you come with solid evidence, then you might have more of a leg to stand on.

At this point in time, I cannot say if I am for or against testing because there is nothing that will cause me to lean one way or the other. Yes, I agree that by being allowed the option to test, that does enable you to differentiate. How is the protocol being set up to allow you to keep that as a positive point of differentiation?

Let's imagine for a moment that you are allowed to test. What happens when you do find another case or cases, because make no mistake about it, you will find more? How do you guarantee that it will be beneficial for your segment versus devastating to the industry? I view the testing issue as one where people feel if they can test, it will be a positive thing as far as consumers/markets are concerned. What if that assumption is wrong?

As has been stated ad infinitum on the various postings, there are no easy answers to this one.

[kato]

Let's imagine that we don't test. If we are only testing randomly and find a positive, that's when the hammer comes down again.

And again... and again ... every time. Even though we can find more animals without changing our BSE status, that means nothing to our markets.

So every time a random test shows up as positive we go through this whole exercise all over again. Explaining ourselves, and justifying our safety measures. And living with yet another market that sits at the bottom for who knows how long.

Are we up to that? I'm not sure I am.

[cowman]

If you could go back about a year you would find I was saying "test everything and damn the cost"! However, with a little rsomer education I realized that just ain't going to happen! So while I believe a universal mandatory test is the way to go, I realize that isn't an option.
However it really bothers me that we can't even do a voluntary test...what happened to our rights as individuals here in this country? Well the fact is we are locked into this what is good for the majority thing...and I struggle with this! What is our committment to our fellow producers?...as I said I struggle with this.

[poorboy]

rsomer,

Your arguments about not testing every animal for BSE and siding with the americans makes sense untill we are sitting alone with a case of BSE. If it was just science based, then the US should have opened the border to Canadian beef a long time ago. Obviously there is politics involved also. The only reason that the americans don't want us to test, is so that the asian countries will cave in and allow US beef to enter untested. The consumers will not pick up the increased costs of testing and the producer will have to absorb it all. This makes total sense to a US beef producer.

However in Canada we have had BSE positive cases. The rules are different for us. We should be testing, so we can ship beef to these other markets. It will also not hinder our access to US markets. We will have the science and a clean bill of health. As Canadians are commited to testing more an more animals we are bound to find more cases of BSE. The obvious answer is to either test none at all or test every animal. I think it is a little late to test zero animals, since we have had a positive case. If we start testing every animal and the US should find a positive case of BSE in their herd, we will be at a competive advantage in suppling overseas, mexican, and possibly more of the US market.

Canada relies so much on exporting our own beef, that we would fools to not start testing 100% of the herd so that we can minimize the impacts of finding more BSE animals.

If the US had opened their borders to our beef already, then it may have made sense to stand behind them and not test. We are being played. It is time for Canadians, to stand up on our own 2 feet for ourselves. The americans are not always right. Just look at the Iraq deal, I was initially ashamed that we were not sending support. Now I am damn glad we did not go, as the whole thing looks like a case of the school yard bully. This BSE thing sure looks to me like the bully deal also.

We either have to increase demand or reduce supply to solve our beef crisis. Reducing supply is the quickest and simplest, but will mean producers will lose a lot their income now and in the future, so increasing demand is probably the most logical.

If the asian market will guarantee that they will accept our beef if we test them all then, we should be doing it quickly. A test run could be done from slaughter plant to make sure the sales will happen.

The producer owned packing plant is an idea of no merit. It will not survive and no more meat demand will come from having another plant. For those who say it will increase sales, show me in writing the purchase orders for beef not already being serviced by canadian beef. Make sure these are long term orders, not just ground beef purchasers, who flip flop there orders around the world based on the cheapest price.

Our own packing plant will do nothing for help when Canada discovers another 2 or 3 cases of BSE. The packing plant idea is a short term solution to packer price gouging and nothing more.

[whiteface]

I have to point out once again that we have CCIA tags and the Americans don't. They didn't reject the beef with our "more advanced than them tracking system" and I think it is one of many things that have gone a long way to vindicate our position. My point is always to take the high road. They simply cannot refuse meat that is "proven" safe and if they do only they will look more like the idiots, not us. When we find more cases, we have the consumers confidence because we kinow where they are. Where are the American cases? Well, the last one we even heard of was covered up in Texas with no good answers why. How dumb do they look to Japan right now. There's no way in hell they will be able to convice Japan to take the meat short of bombing them or testing their meat. Why not get there first. There is no export market without the test. States or anywhere. Our meat (live) WILL NOT go south unless and until they can ship to Japan. You or I or any of us will not live long enough to simply "wait this out." We definatly should not fear disrupting trade with testing, we're simply taking the high road. They can follow or they can continue to bully Japan but they can't bully us anymore. I think I speak for all of us when I say we've had it with their kind of barganing. Seriously, did we have to get their permission for those tags? Is this so different? Being more progressive rather than standing around like a dumb ass wondering what to do next, looking for someone to make decisions for us. Again, I address the possibility of being "allowed" to test. This MUST be addressed. The states can take the non tested stuff if they want, but we need options and the freedom to have options so as kato said we don't have to do this over and over and over again. How smart are we to set ourselves up for another case and having to justify our position all over agian. We might as well just join the states and shoot, shovel and shutup right along with them, just "hopeing the Asian market caves and simply takes our infected beef because they "love it so much." How arrogant and stupid is that notion. Treating them like they're idiots. They simply will and have gone elsewhere. Now who looks stupid. Not the Japaneese, they needed a product and solved their own problem and didn't allow themselves to be bullyed. They'll take the meat when the meat is what they want. How thick headed do we look passing up such a simple request. Just sit and wait for the states to decide for us. No thanks.

[whiteface]

All this NAFTA harmonization crap just boggles my mind.

Whiteface makes way more sense with her conversation about CFIA tags.

Time to wake up and realise that we are being played as pawns by every sector of the world trading community. Canadian entrepreneurs could be as comptitive in the world market as anyone if our own country had the balls to initiate some rules, or at least allow those entrepreneurs to try.

This consumer confidence issue is getting really tiring as well. Kato's post about random testing finding more cases says it all.