G8 Summit

[pandiana]

Grassfarmer, I would never presume to know what your grass fed beef tasted like, and if you have a good market for it that says all you need to say.

What I do know is that much of Mexican and South American grassfed beef is very different than grain fed beef.

First, it is often 3 years old before it has reached a size and finish suitable for market.

Second, it is more difficult to put on desirable intramuscular fat on a grass diet. Also, keeping in mind that grass quality changes with the seasons. Grass fed animals tend to be much leaner having to walk pastures to secure forage and water. Exercise tends to strengthen muscle fibers.

And third, in hotter climes, much of the genetics include, out of necessity, bos indicus genetics which tend not to produce the high 'quality' grades that bos taurus cattle do.

There is obviously a market for all kinds of beef, but I will contend that most 'prime' 'choice' or 'triple A' quality grades of cattle in North America are grain fed and produce the quality cuts of beef we see in restaurants and on barbecues.

I don't recall saying anything about grain fed being healthier. That could be another discussion. I would definately agree with the above comments of whiteface regarding the feeding of all cattle. It is unfortunate that margins are so tight as to continually pressure our industry to find ever cheaper sources of protein in an effort to make cattle profitable.

My point above was that if they were increasing their market niche by including grain fed cattle there input cost would increase to more closely reflect the costs incurred in Canada and the US.

[grassfarmer]

Whiteface, you suggest that eating grassfed is like eating roadkill. Is that the same kind of intelligent reasoning you always demand from politicians and scientists regarding BSE and BSE testing?

If anyone wants to learn about grassfed beef I suggest they check out the excellent "eatwild.com" website. In the May edition of Stockman Grassfarmer there is a report of a test involving some top Seattle chefs and rib eye steaks taken from 11 grassfed operations across a geographically diverse sweep of the US from the high plains of Colorado to the temperate south. Unknown to the chefs a quality grainfed steak was bought from a leading store and added to the mix - result only two of the grassfed steaks ranked lower than the grainfed one! At that only 25% of the grassfed steaks were considered properly grass
"finished" as the rest contained no marbling. None of the steaks was found to have a strong, gamey, grassy or off putting taste.

[pandiana]

Just a thought, grassfarmer. If the 5.6 million cattle and calves in Alberta in 2004 were grass fed and you could estimate that the average pasture stocking rate was 1:10 conservatively, we would need 56 million acres of pasture, and at least that much again for hay during the winter. Do we have that much?

[grassfarmer]

Pandiana, when we talk of expanding grassfed cattle here we are not talking about ranching cattle the way the early pioneers did. We are talking about management intensive grazing primarily on the very suitable lands of the parkland and grey wooded soils. This results in far higher stocking rates and production hence a better return to the producer of a smaller land base than conventional thinking allows.
I would argue that the feedlot idea is unsustainable - do you know that it has been calculated it takes 284 gallons of oil to produce a feedlot steer in the US taking into account the corn growing and the trucking involved. Is it right that the US with 5% of the worlds population uses between 55-60% of the worlds oil supply (hence their ongoing wars to protect that supply).
How can we possibly think that adding feedlot systems to the developing countries that presently have grass fed systems can possibly help? It is pure and simple greed by the multi-national companies that are profiting in Canada at our expense at the moment. Do you back them or the gaucho family in South America that is raising beef in an entirely sustainable manner?
As an aside not all South American grass operations are backward and producing 3 or 4 year old fat cattle. Some leading Argentinian producers are currently educating the American grassfed beef movement on how to manage their grass and feed resources to achieve prime fat cattle at 18-20 months of age on systems involving year round grazing.

[cswilson]

Whiteface for a man who might be raising exactly the kind of cattle that would fit grass finishing you are grossly uninformed-grass finishing is not possible with some of our current genetics if you want to fit the current grading system but it certainly can be done. The meat if anything is superior to grain fed. WE ultasounded a group of HEREFORD and Angus steers off of grass and killed all over 5mm of backfat then got them inspected and graded-all graded A. Our customers loved the product. Ourselves despite having lots of cattle on feed eat a dry two year old off grass for ourselves.

[pandiana]

Without a doubt grassfarmer, there are exceptions to every rule. I carefully used words like most, usually etc., to acknowledge the possibility that grassfed beef can grade under the right conditions. But, I would stick by my contention that grain-fed beef is more widely sought after for the restaurant and high end beef market and that a higher percentage would grade Triple A or Prime in a shorter time.

As to the economics, weighing the cost of an extended finishing period against the higher input costs of feedlot cattle may be comparable, I don't know. I would agree that the cost to the environment including use of non-renewable resources could be higher. Nonetheless, making and feeding hay comes at a cost of fuel, etc.

Our farm has been a supporter or rotational grazing for the past 14 years. Conservatively speaking I would think we have doubled our carrying capacity. The best we can get is around 1:2 cows/acre during our very short (5 months) grazing season. However, as you know, drought has thrown a wrench into even the best managed pastures (unless of course you have a quarter or two that is held in reserve for such times). Shortgrass areas, with a traditional stocking rate of 1:35 or 1:50 would not come close to this stocking rate even under intensive grazing, although they usually benefit from a much longer grazing season.

No matter which route is taken, I agree with whiteface that we must provide good feed and clean water in a humane environment.

[grassfarmer]

Pandiana, you mention your stocking rate on the "very limited 5 month grazing season" I assume you mean the very limited 5 month growing season?
We have got to see the grazing period being substantially longer than this 5 month growing season or we will not be able to run cows and make money. If it is not possible to grow enough grass to do this then we are substantially overstocked as an industry.

[whiteface]

You're all welcome to your grass fed meat if that's what suits your fancy and pays your bills. I find it interesting that you're all so defensive over a little comment, makes me wonder if I didn't miss that nail by much. If grass product is so superior, you'll all be rich in no time, selling your meat to the droves of people comeing looking for it... or just maybe feedlots evolved for a reason, that one being that that type of meat was selling. If the world is moving back to a more natural meat ( and incidentally as I've said, grain to me is "natural", plate scrapings and chicken litter are not) then I look forward to more bison, elk, deer, rabbit whatever farming and cattle can go the way of the dinosaur. They have been bred to perform on feed, hence the "intensive grazing" comment above. Your elk, deer and bison have been selected by nature to perform on next to nothing, walk long miles to find it toughing up the flesh and now you have "farmers" locking them up, feeding them hay and grain, giving them ivomec, vaccinating for everything and treating with antiobitics when and sometimes not when necessary. If you're into the grass thing go ahead, and sure my breed competes better than anything walking for surviving on nothing and I also know as a competitive purebred breeder that every single breed has done some study somewhere where their breed absolutly outperformed everything, in every area imaginable, so to tell me of all your incidents where grass fed excelled, I believe you, but I can assure you there were two, or three or ten other such incidents where the consumer bought "Alberta grain fed" for a reason. It simply tastes better. Just my opinion, my customers love the product and have sneered away from any animal I offered not grain fed. Not only that, the land is outrageously expensive around here to afford to keeping an animal as long as it takes to "finish" on grass. Maybe if I moved to the moon or some other place people don't financially compete for space or perhaps had I inherited my land I could afford to do it, but then I would have freight to consider, as it stands now the customer comes to me because my close situation to them. Even at that, purebred cattle again has taught me the customer sets the rules and if and when I get orders for grass beef and they pay for the time involved, you bet they've got it...haven't found one yet who wants it, I've asked. The road kill comment was not mine originally, came from a "grass fed" (not my steer) turned grain fed customer.

[grassfarmer]

As I suggested above whiteface your simplistic, childish comments don't prove your case they just point to the absense of a case. I'll agree with you that cattle should be fed natural feeds (eg grass, grass and more grass) the
"plate scrapings and chicken litter" type feeds you describe are things that have been developed and utilised in modern confinement agriculture not in the natural world of pasture production.
Can you show me some trial work comparing grassfed to grainfed beef in terms of eating quality that gave the grainfed the advantage? If you take time to look at the health aspect you will see there is clearly an overwhelming body of evidence in favour of the grassfed product.

[whiteface]

Grassfarmer you must live in an area that can't grow a decent grain crop. And what do you care if I can make money on grain fed beef off the farm, go ahead and sell grass fed, your choice, I'm pro choice. No one who has ever written me a decent sized cheque for quality beef wanted grass fed, maybe its different where grain don't grow, costs you too much to import your feed. So grow grass, feed beef, be fruitful, I'm all for different strokes for different folks. Hope you're getting a little sunshine through the clouds at your place! :-)

[grassfarmer]

Further proof of an absense of a case whiteface, resorting to the cowman line that your land is too good to grow grass on. Go on tear it up with the big John Deere, expensive diesel, deplete the organic matter to get a handful of grain to feed to livestock in an intensive operation. That's the right way - the clever way to feed a herbivore - if you want to be in debt to the Multi-nationals that control all the links in that production chain.

[whiteface]

I wasn't aware that I had to "prove" my case to you grassfarmer, thanks for letting me know, and incidentally it makes sense that I think similarly to cowman regarding the price of land, we live probably within 50 miles of one another. Sounds to me with your extreme defensiveness that as I said above, I haven't missed the nail by much, I'm willing to bet you can't grow grain where you live as you refer to my ability to grow "a handful" of it, must be all they grow where you live, I'm really sorry about your costs of transportation to and from the "bigger" markets. In any event, I do not grow one kernal of grain here but certainly appeciate the value of the grain growers. As well, since it also appears to me that not only do you need to be right, you also seem to need the last word, which you can have also from me if that's your purpose in life. I do not have any point to prove, I simply state my opinion as I see it, if you agree, great, that's how alliances are formed, if you do not, great also, that's how diversification is formed. If you need to be right, you can be right in your own little word, doesn't mean I have to agree with you and I don't based on my customer reactions and the fact that I need to make the most money possible on this high-rent land...that I absolutly relate to with cowman, I could own several peoples stock trailers with the amount we pay just in property tax every year. As far as you needing the last word, you have it, not being disrespectful, but if you choose to reply to my comment here, I will not be replying back. Life's too short to try and "prove a point" as you put it with someone who simply does not share your opinion. Thanks for comeing out. :-)

[pandiana]

I appreciate your point that we must extend our grazing season, especially in this area. I am intrigued but I have don't have a lot of confidence that there is a cheaper way of feeding other than forage harvested. From your profile, it would seem you farm close to me. My experience has been that during a typical season we might get five months of grazing. A good year might see pasture remain open until from May to October. In the 'old' pre-drought days we frequently experienced 18-20 inches of snow over very mediocre grass in October and November. It has been my experience that the quality of the grass during fall is inferior and you work hard to keep condition on cattle in preparation for winter. Without supplementing, I am not sure how your keep condition.

I am rather interested in swath grazing but again, with the amount of snowfall that we can get I am not sure you can count on it. Also, I remember how much work it was in my keener more energetic days when we strip grazed. Its not much fun moving fence every day even though the cattle loved it. But then again, that's grain!

[cswilson]

You ever notice people can be like the cows they raise-me I'm Angus I can get hot and on the peck-some Hereford guys just shut their eyes and get more stubborn LOL.

[kato]

You've got to do what your land dictates. If we all raised the same kind of cattle there would be no such thing as a "premium".

Our pasture season lasts from the end of May to the end of October on the average. We can extend grazing for the cows until later with corn, but as of today it's too wet to plant. I guess it'll be green feed oats for us this year.

Our policy is to keep the extra grass for the cows, and pen up the calves and pump it to them. We feed screening pellets and then introduce barley to them as they get going.

We don't have the land base needed to put steers out on grass, it's maxed out on the cow herd.

Just like that old debate over when to calve, it's whatever suits your setup. A young finished animal, whether grass or barley is bound to produce better beef than a two year old.

Key words..young...finished.

BTW.. does this have anything to do with the G8? LOL