G8 Summit

[pandiana]

Thank you rsomer for this very important link.

This paper confirms my belief that 1) we need to push for independent packing facilities and 2) there are many markets that can be tapped other than US.

I realize our costs of production are higher than in S. America or Australia for that matter, as long as they are producing grass fed beef. However, as they move towards intensive production in higher quality grain fed beef, they will surely experience somewhat comparible costs. Australia also is moving towards grain fed beef I understand. This should improve our competitiveness for markets looking for high quality beef such as Japan, Korea.

Lower-grade export markets such as Russia and possible EU exist. We are closer to these markets and would hope transportation advantages would increase our competetive edge.

I realize that seeking non-US markets would be a struggle, but I do think it would be worth the effort. We have top genetics (no Ears) producing world class, quality beef, from cattle raised in a clean, heathly environment with only one scar on our record (BSE).

[grassfarmer]

Pandiana, could you provide some clarification on the sentence:
"However,as they move towards intensive production in higher quality grain fed beef, they will surely experience somewhat comparible costs." Have you proof that grain fed beef is better quality or healthier than grassfed?

[whiteface]

I have a comment for that question grassfarmer, even though the question was not directed at me. Just try biting into a holstein cow or a road kill deer or moose if you're wondering about taste difference of grain or grass. Health standpoint? I have less of an opinion, only that cattle should be fed whole grains rather than plate scrapings and chinken litter and the taste is much improved. In my opinion as well, grain is "grass" with the seed attached and has been bred up just like livestock to do various purposes beyond simply reproducing itself, much like cattle have been bred to produce a quality tasting product. This is breeding in my eyes, grasses and livestock. If we wanted different as a nation well we might all still be aboriginals. They don't "farm" they "hunt" and I think our society definatly has acquired a taste for quality grain-fed meat. Oh, and cowman, thanks for not comeing down too hard on me for running my mouth off. There are many things about you that I think are valuable and I do for sure appreciate that everyone has their own ways of doing things...it makes us all unique and with something worthwhile to bring to the table. I'm probably feeling pretty scared myself about some of the big changes that seem inevitable to keep the industry going, and had to cover up my own insecurities by sounding off.

[pandiana]

Grassfarmer, I would never presume to know what your grass fed beef tasted like, and if you have a good market for it that says all you need to say.

What I do know is that much of Mexican and South American grassfed beef is very different than grain fed beef.

First, it is often 3 years old before it has reached a size and finish suitable for market.

Second, it is more difficult to put on desirable intramuscular fat on a grass diet. Also, keeping in mind that grass quality changes with the seasons. Grass fed animals tend to be much leaner having to walk pastures to secure forage and water. Exercise tends to strengthen muscle fibers.

And third, in hotter climes, much of the genetics include, out of necessity, bos indicus genetics which tend not to produce the high 'quality' grades that bos taurus cattle do.

There is obviously a market for all kinds of beef, but I will contend that most 'prime' 'choice' or 'triple A' quality grades of cattle in North America are grain fed and produce the quality cuts of beef we see in restaurants and on barbecues.

I don't recall saying anything about grain fed being healthier. That could be another discussion. I would definately agree with the above comments of whiteface regarding the feeding of all cattle. It is unfortunate that margins are so tight as to continually pressure our industry to find ever cheaper sources of protein in an effort to make cattle profitable.

My point above was that if they were increasing their market niche by including grain fed cattle there input cost would increase to more closely reflect the costs incurred in Canada and the US.

[grassfarmer]

Whiteface, you suggest that eating grassfed is like eating roadkill. Is that the same kind of intelligent reasoning you always demand from politicians and scientists regarding BSE and BSE testing?

If anyone wants to learn about grassfed beef I suggest they check out the excellent "eatwild.com" website. In the May edition of Stockman Grassfarmer there is a report of a test involving some top Seattle chefs and rib eye steaks taken from 11 grassfed operations across a geographically diverse sweep of the US from the high plains of Colorado to the temperate south. Unknown to the chefs a quality grainfed steak was bought from a leading store and added to the mix - result only two of the grassfed steaks ranked lower than the grainfed one! At that only 25% of the grassfed steaks were considered properly grass
"finished" as the rest contained no marbling. None of the steaks was found to have a strong, gamey, grassy or off putting taste.

[pandiana]

Just a thought, grassfarmer. If the 5.6 million cattle and calves in Alberta in 2004 were grass fed and you could estimate that the average pasture stocking rate was 1:10 conservatively, we would need 56 million acres of pasture, and at least that much again for hay during the winter. Do we have that much?

[grassfarmer]

Pandiana, when we talk of expanding grassfed cattle here we are not talking about ranching cattle the way the early pioneers did. We are talking about management intensive grazing primarily on the very suitable lands of the parkland and grey wooded soils. This results in far higher stocking rates and production hence a better return to the producer of a smaller land base than conventional thinking allows.
I would argue that the feedlot idea is unsustainable - do you know that it has been calculated it takes 284 gallons of oil to produce a feedlot steer in the US taking into account the corn growing and the trucking involved. Is it right that the US with 5% of the worlds population uses between 55-60% of the worlds oil supply (hence their ongoing wars to protect that supply).
How can we possibly think that adding feedlot systems to the developing countries that presently have grass fed systems can possibly help? It is pure and simple greed by the multi-national companies that are profiting in Canada at our expense at the moment. Do you back them or the gaucho family in South America that is raising beef in an entirely sustainable manner?
As an aside not all South American grass operations are backward and producing 3 or 4 year old fat cattle. Some leading Argentinian producers are currently educating the American grassfed beef movement on how to manage their grass and feed resources to achieve prime fat cattle at 18-20 months of age on systems involving year round grazing.

[cswilson]

Whiteface for a man who might be raising exactly the kind of cattle that would fit grass finishing you are grossly uninformed-grass finishing is not possible with some of our current genetics if you want to fit the current grading system but it certainly can be done. The meat if anything is superior to grain fed. WE ultasounded a group of HEREFORD and Angus steers off of grass and killed all over 5mm of backfat then got them inspected and graded-all graded A. Our customers loved the product. Ourselves despite having lots of cattle on feed eat a dry two year old off grass for ourselves.

[pandiana]

Without a doubt grassfarmer, there are exceptions to every rule. I carefully used words like most, usually etc., to acknowledge the possibility that grassfed beef can grade under the right conditions. But, I would stick by my contention that grain-fed beef is more widely sought after for the restaurant and high end beef market and that a higher percentage would grade Triple A or Prime in a shorter time.

As to the economics, weighing the cost of an extended finishing period against the higher input costs of feedlot cattle may be comparable, I don't know. I would agree that the cost to the environment including use of non-renewable resources could be higher. Nonetheless, making and feeding hay comes at a cost of fuel, etc.

Our farm has been a supporter or rotational grazing for the past 14 years. Conservatively speaking I would think we have doubled our carrying capacity. The best we can get is around 1:2 cows/acre during our very short (5 months) grazing season. However, as you know, drought has thrown a wrench into even the best managed pastures (unless of course you have a quarter or two that is held in reserve for such times). Shortgrass areas, with a traditional stocking rate of 1:35 or 1:50 would not come close to this stocking rate even under intensive grazing, although they usually benefit from a much longer grazing season.

No matter which route is taken, I agree with whiteface that we must provide good feed and clean water in a humane environment.

[grassfarmer]

Pandiana, you mention your stocking rate on the "very limited 5 month grazing season" I assume you mean the very limited 5 month growing season?
We have got to see the grazing period being substantially longer than this 5 month growing season or we will not be able to run cows and make money. If it is not possible to grow enough grass to do this then we are substantially overstocked as an industry.

[whiteface]

You're all welcome to your grass fed meat if that's what suits your fancy and pays your bills. I find it interesting that you're all so defensive over a little comment, makes me wonder if I didn't miss that nail by much. If grass product is so superior, you'll all be rich in no time, selling your meat to the droves of people comeing looking for it... or just maybe feedlots evolved for a reason, that one being that that type of meat was selling. If the world is moving back to a more natural meat ( and incidentally as I've said, grain to me is "natural", plate scrapings and chicken litter are not) then I look forward to more bison, elk, deer, rabbit whatever farming and cattle can go the way of the dinosaur. They have been bred to perform on feed, hence the "intensive grazing" comment above. Your elk, deer and bison have been selected by nature to perform on next to nothing, walk long miles to find it toughing up the flesh and now you have "farmers" locking them up, feeding them hay and grain, giving them ivomec, vaccinating for everything and treating with antiobitics when and sometimes not when necessary. If you're into the grass thing go ahead, and sure my breed competes better than anything walking for surviving on nothing and I also know as a competitive purebred breeder that every single breed has done some study somewhere where their breed absolutly outperformed everything, in every area imaginable, so to tell me of all your incidents where grass fed excelled, I believe you, but I can assure you there were two, or three or ten other such incidents where the consumer bought "Alberta grain fed" for a reason. It simply tastes better. Just my opinion, my customers love the product and have sneered away from any animal I offered not grain fed. Not only that, the land is outrageously expensive around here to afford to keeping an animal as long as it takes to "finish" on grass. Maybe if I moved to the moon or some other place people don't financially compete for space or perhaps had I inherited my land I could afford to do it, but then I would have freight to consider, as it stands now the customer comes to me because my close situation to them. Even at that, purebred cattle again has taught me the customer sets the rules and if and when I get orders for grass beef and they pay for the time involved, you bet they've got it...haven't found one yet who wants it, I've asked. The road kill comment was not mine originally, came from a "grass fed" (not my steer) turned grain fed customer.

[grassfarmer]

As I suggested above whiteface your simplistic, childish comments don't prove your case they just point to the absense of a case. I'll agree with you that cattle should be fed natural feeds (eg grass, grass and more grass) the
"plate scrapings and chicken litter" type feeds you describe are things that have been developed and utilised in modern confinement agriculture not in the natural world of pasture production.
Can you show me some trial work comparing grassfed to grainfed beef in terms of eating quality that gave the grainfed the advantage? If you take time to look at the health aspect you will see there is clearly an overwhelming body of evidence in favour of the grassfed product.