BIG C Meeting June 7th

[kato]

I would say that somewhere around 300 people attended a passionate, and at times boisterous meeting at Grant Hirshe's sale barn at High River.

Cam Ostercamp, Grant Hirshe, and Chairman Doug Fraser sat in the auction stand and tried to cool loud moments and limit the overwhelming line up of speakers.

The first very loud response from the crowd came when Cam pointed out that no more taxpayers money should go to propping up programs like the ones this past year. Obviously everyone is sick of being looked as as the begging dogs while the packers adjust their offerings according to these so called bail outs.

Testing was of couse a key topic, and very little negative comments were brought up by anyone including a large number of politicians. One fellow from the Alberta conservative party, agreed that this is the only long term solution, and then went on to tell us of the time involved in getting something like this done. He was booed off the stage. Likewise the Federal PC boy who explained the action taken by the PC's to not have the Packers pay fines for contempt of parliment. Too many politicians stood up and spoke and wasted both their time and ours. But the organisers thought they needed to give them a fair shake. Most could barely be heard over the crowd as this time was taken as time for the crowd to share their views with one another.

A couple of very desperate, very passionate feedlot operators had some anti American views. Personally I believe it is Anti Cargil and Anti Tyson talk diquised to protect their one and only market at the moment. Both agreed that testing is goal to move toward.

Lots of new Gen Coop folks spoke but none are very close to bricks and mortar. Lots of talk of loan guarantees, and every one of them wants to be allowed to test. I hope we can turn these entepreneurs loose very soon.

Cost of testing was brought up breifly, both in terms of consumer confidence cost and actual costs to test. One statement from Cam stopped this talk in it's tracks. It is far less cost than not testing. I only wish rsomer could have been there for that overwhelming moment. I have not used the exact words I know, but the old phrase,"you had to be there" certainly applies to that one.

Little interest in talk of the transmissible theory of BSE, but it was brought up by a few, and talked about by more.

Future meeting are being planned with possibly a bit less focus on letting everyone have a turn at the mic.

Lots of media, and like I said LOTS of politicians. I think that the message was heard, and will continue to be.

Last weeks change of ownership price for a 1300 pound fat steer was $612.00
That means that as soon as an American company buys a fat steer from a Canadian producer the value rises by $612.00. Yes the packers have a few more costs than pre BSE, but these kind of numbers are surely astonishing. Who in their right mind would want to open a border and lose those profits when they are simply there for the taking.

ALLOW US TO TEST BEEF and pursue new markets. They are out there. If you don't believe me, go to a BIG C meeting in your area and listen to some of these open minded entepreneurs.

Testing will instill consumer confidence not erode it.

Thanks for all of your support and good luck when BIG C comes to your area.

[whiteface]

Thanks so much for the report, Randy, although one part has me very concerned. One fellow agreed that testing is the way to go but was saying its a long process to get to do something like that? I'd have booooed him louder than anyone there had I been there but what does he mean its a lenghty process? How long are we talking? Did this suddenly become a huge obstacle? What are the roadblocks?

[grassfarmer]

Someone told me the other day that the cheapest and easiest test which has a certain percentage of false positives isn't readily available -that's the first problem with testing, actually getting the test kits. Also the problem of false positives that need further testing with the conventional test is a problem due to the huge cost and delay involved. This is however the test the Japanese are using currently.

[kato]

False positives beat false negatives any day!

I would think that if the "will" is there, it will happen.

[rsomer]

Did anyone at the meeting mention that Japan is not accepting any beef imports from the United Kingdom, France, Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Denmark, Sweden even though these countries test 100%? Japan is not accepting beef from any country that had a positive BSE test, period. You say allow us to test and pursue new markets. They [markets for beef from BSE positive countries] are out there. I would suggest that there are precious few export markets out there for any country found to have even one positive BSE test. Even if the U.S. did test 100%, the minute they found a positive cow Japan would stop importing U.S. beef.

Japan is importing over 90% of its beef from Australia, a country that only tests 500 head per year. With that level of surveillance testing it would be difficult to say whether or not Australia is BSE free. The risk of BSE is not materially different in Canada than in Australia yet Japan is not insisting Australia test. Our beef is as safe or safer as Australia’s. Canada is to test 30,000 animals next year. We are testing but Australia is selling the beef. On top of our increased testing we are removing SRM’s which provides 100% food safety.

Countries that test 100% do not test to open export markets rather to rebuild the confidence of their domestic consumers. Given that our domestic demand has strengthened without 100% testing it would be hard to justify the risk of increased testing finding more positives. As a industry, we certainly want the next BSE cow found in North American to be of U.S. origin. For that matter we should hope it is not found until the border opens to our live cattle.

Glad to hear of lots of talk of loan guarantees, that certainly would be something positive and would help to see packing plants being built. I note the comment "I hope we can turn these entrepreneurs loose very soon." I read today where Japanese restaurant owners are lobbying to have U.S. beef imported without test so which entrepreneur do you believe?

The facts do not support the notion that 100% testing opens export markets beyond trading blocs. Within the EU, yes, but not elswhere. And like the EU trading bloc, I suggest our only viable export market is the U.S. and NAFTA.

[rusty1]

rsomer - thanks - I agree. The only way to get JApan into line is turn all their ships back with computerw, VCR, DVD, cars, and charge Austrailia a big import duty to do the same.

If JApan wants testing - then let me see a PO and downpayment.

Plus I want to know what the rules will be when we see another BSE.

[grassfarmer]

rsomer, for someone who writes so knowledgeably you need to check your facts on European testing - these countries are not testing 100%, certainly not the UK. To my knowledge Japan is the only country in the world that is testing 100% of it's beef output.

[rsomer]

It is interesting to note that Japan only tests downer cows if they are 24 months or older. Japan does test younger animals for BSE even though it is known that a cattle 18 months or younger may prove negative even when they are infected.

As an example in Europe, Austria tests 100% of bovines over 24 months of age and SRMs are removed from every animal slaughtered regardless of age. What constitutes a SRM is Austria depends upon the age of the animal.

The EU and OIE made the decision to remove the spinal column, including the spinal ganglia more than more than a year before Japan. Japan lagged well behind but is now removing the spinal column as well.

The United States, Canada and the OIE ban pithing, the procedure of piercing the spinal cord of cattle to prevent them from moving violently when they are slaughtered, because brain tissue could contaminate meat. In Japan, the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare advises against the practice, but most Japanese abattoirs continue to use it.

Just because Japan tests all cattle, it does not necessarily mean Japanese measures are the safest.

[blackjack]

rpkaiser... went to the meeting last night and found it very informative. Hopefully that poor politician from down south goes back to Ralph and Shirley and tells there might be more than one idea of entrepreneurism. Excellent description of the meeting! Thanks Randy ...

[blackjack]

You go to great lengths to proove your point rsomer. How's your homework coming along. Do you have solid proof yet that BSE is transfered by digestion?

I do not think that testing is nessecary at all, but it is the only way to even hope for trade with any other country than the one who is so graciously stealing our beef, and breaking our producers.

You think you have all the proof in the world that testing will not open new markets. I say you are wrong. Okay.

[rsomer]

I see the best hope for our industry is to build packing plants, not test 100%. In fact we don’t need to hope and wring our hands in despair, building packing plants is something we can make happen. Whether or not the border opens to live cattle, and I think it will, we still need the packing plants. North America is presently our only significant export market for beef so why not focus our energies on doing something that will see our share of that market increase. Testing 100% or even 100% of cows will not see our industry gain more of the NAFTA market. Building packing plants will. I think it will be an uphill battle for North America, much less Canada by itself, to regain lost Asian markets.

I see producer calls for 100% testing will not have the intended effect of forcing the U.S. to open our borders to live cattle. Rather Canadian calls for 100% testing is strengthening Japan’s bargaining position in BSE talks with the U.S. thereby delaying the opening of our border.

I have no idea of how BSE is spread. I am quite sure the incidence of BSE is very, very low in North America. I do think our industry was right to remove the SRMs from all cattle over 30 months and I would even support the removal of potentially infected material from younger animals, brain and intestines. Removal of SRMs provides assurance of food safety, without the delays of testing not to mention the political fallout and media frenzy every time a positive is found.

NAFTA is accepting our beef, so why not provide it to them? NAFTA is committed to more testing and if there is ever a conclusion to the BSE talks between Japan and the U.S. I am sure Canada and Mexico will quickly move to harmonize with whatever measures the U.S. agrees to. I doubt if those measures will ever involve testing younger animals for BSE, there is no sense to that.

Producer calls for 100% testing is a distraction from doing things that would really make a difference. Once we get the packing plants we can look for markets where ever we want but certainly the biggest share of our beef market will continue to be the U.S. even if they are a bunch of SOBs.

[rsomer]

How many times do you need to make your point rsomer? We all know you do not agree that testing will not help open new markets, and beleive it or not, you will never convince some of us. Even your pathetic attempts to blame people who are pushing this notion for delaying the border opening only proove to me your arrogance and ignorance. Why stop at the reserves rsomer, with your attitude you should be leading a group of soldiers in war.

I will honestly be glad when you are right about this border opening soon, and you and your farm survive. You will have prooven that you where right and all of the farms going down now, and in the interm, where simply poor managers.
Or were simply caused to go down by BIG C delaying the process.

[rsomer]

I apologize once again for a reactionary response. Blaming a group of farmers pushing the notion of testing, along with BUILDING PACKING PLANTS, for delaying your border opening simply boils my blood.
I appreciate that the circumstances on your farm depend heavily on the border opening, however, you and all the other ABP folk in your boots that are focused, for private reasons, are overlooking the main push behind this testing issue. We need to reduce our dependence on the American consumer. I find it hard to beleive that you have even read the Cam Ostercamp essay beyond the statement about testing.
Ironically, and almost nonsensically three of the main farms behind BIG C have all concentrated their efforts a long time ago, on developing markets of their own. Domestic markets uninvolved in testing. There are lots of oportunities in these areas as well. ABP and rsomer have focused on the border opening to save their farms, and to hell with the rest. The rest need new market help. Pound your thoughts down on your keyboard some more rsomer. Try to convince me that I am wrong.

[rsomer]

I am not trying to convince you one way or another. My comments are directed towards the beef producer in general who reads these threads.

You say we need to reduce our dependence upon the American consumer. I say we need to reduce our dependence upon the two American packing plants.

The U.S. and Mexico has been and remains our number 1 market for beef. Prior to BSE 90% of our beef exports went to the U.S. and Mexico. Canada’s beef exports to non NAFTA countries before BSE was not significant and a lot of that was offal and tripe and tongue. Our market for meat products was NAFTA.
Sure we are all real frustrated with the U.S. and their totally unfair and protectionist treatment of Canada. But the U.S. and Mexico remain our only export market for beef. We need to capitalize on that.

You say "Rsomer has focused on the border opening to save their farms, and to hell with the rest." I think a lot of producers are heavily dependent upon the border opening to see their farms through this year as more packing plants offer a longer term solution. I don’t know where you come up with "to hell with the rest". We are all in this together. And since we are all in this together we would have more chance of seeing change take place if we could collectively focus on the one or two things that would see our industry through. That is continue working to get the border open to live cattle but leave no stone unturned to see Canadian packing plant capacity built immediately so we can take advantage of the markets we really do have. Testing 100% offers no solutions for our industry.

[whiteface]

Rsomer, while you go to great lengths to provide what may be convincing arguements, another person who is much like youself just may go to the same great lenghts to argue why border opening or packing plant idea alone won't work any better than where we are now either. I'm not an extreme argumentalist but I will remind you very briefly, as has been pointed out on this forum more than once that simply opening the border does NOT protect us from a fallout with another case, when, and it certainly will happen. Absoutly nothing stops the entire last year from repeating itself when more are found if we have done nothing to change our situation as it was before BSE was found. Those who do not learn from they're mistakes are destined to repeat them. I'm really sorry, rsomer, WE are better than that. The packing plant idea, while is necessary IN CONJUNCTION with other solutions, by itself, as has been pointed out in here, may have a tough time with no leverage against larger plants for competition. This is where we must be givien permission to test. The big boys don't want to and that suits me just fine. Give a specialty plant just that, freedom to compete with the prices paid for slaughter cattle becuase they aim to please an entirely different market. The market that you rsomer do not believe is there, beit consumers or offshore markets or simply the leverage to compete with the US who right now are using it against us big time. So they don't test, who cares? WE do this to solve our own problem and save our own butts. You write like we need permission from them to breathe. And if I might rsomer, point out that if you really believe that Japan will not take meat from any country with a BSE case regardless of test, why are the states even entertaining the possibility of trying. Or us lobby the stes for imports for that matter? Why not just forget it altogether and lobby the government for a buyout of all these cows so we can go into the city and get "real jobs." I will say that your tenacity is admirable, just to bad for us you're not on our side, the one that absolutly needs a change of some kind because otherwise the US will contiue to own us. That can't be something you want either, rsomer, you'd just HAVE TO realize we need more than an open border and a new plant or two. What the hell stops this situation from recurring over and over again? Hope? Hope that the US won't slam 'em shut when another case is found, when R-calf gets pissy again, when we have our hair parted the wrong way? No thanks, I would like us to own our own problem and take resposibility for our own lives, and I'd really like you to be on our side rsomer, you can sure argue.