BIG C Meeting June 7th

[grassfarmer]

rsomer, your statement says it all "any arguments in favour of 100% testing are purely hypothetical until all NAFTA member countries agree. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the talks between the U.S. and Japan. Canada and Mexico should really be part of those discussions."
So how come we have to wait for NAFTA member countries to agree on a policy yet the US goes it alone on negotiating with the Japanese? If the US decides to test for the Japanese market I am pretty sure they won't come to Canada and Mexico to get their approval under NAFTA first. Until we start treating the American protectionist bullies for what they are we will get nowhere.

[pandiana]

Another good link, rsomer.

What I don't understand from this report is, in 2002 over 90% of our exports to Russia were meat and offal and most of this was pork, why the precipitous drop to 73% in 2003 and 58% in 2004. Would you think this is a loss of confidence in our products or maybe we haven't been giving our exports the attention they need?

[pandiana]

Cowmen, what do you think we made massive amounts of money on that would be as a direct results of NAFTA? I really don't have any facts that would convince me one way or the other. However, it seems to me that pre-NAFTA the US was still our major trading partner. We were inundated with American everything and that hasn't changed under NAFTA. I personally don't remember buying everything from the east. Give me an example.

I do have strong feelings about Canadian culture. We talked on this forum previously about a mouse being in bed with an elephant. We have been overwhelmed by American culture; our culture (and our politics for that matter) have all but been subverted to become another American state. Without the likes of CBC and Canadian content ruling we would lose our voice entirely. I would not trade CBC, or BBC for a single American news outlet if I was looking for a balanced view of world politics or culture. In addition, I think some Canadian movies and TV blow the overhyped, shallow, formula-based and near pornographic movies we are treated to from the US right out of the water. Canada finds itself in the position of being neither strong enough to be independently Canadian nor American enough to want to be part of the US. On the other hand, the BSE crisis shows that we cannot expect the US to treat us other than with the contempt of a nation that doesn't even register on their radar.

[whiteface]

Thank you les for reminding many of us that the regular urbanite doesn't even know there is a problem with us. I as well know people that are genuinly shocked when after some time has passed without regular contact with them, they can't believe this is still going on. The price of the meat hasn't changed from their perspective (retailer) and if we are getting nothing for the cattle, they would sure like it passed on to them as well. We absolutly MUST NOT let this go, continue to be loud, continue to thank and praise innovative leaders like rpkaiser, who is certainly comeing up with more ideas and organizing more rallies and making the government at least have to pay some attention to us, more than the rest of us seem to be doing. We need representation and we need more noise and not just amongst ourselves but to as many as we can voice to, then and only then will anyone even consider that there is a problem. The politicians are going to hope that we either die or shutup somehow but they have not been able to come up with an easy fix (open border)now they would rather not deal with us at all. Like above as well, can I count on your vote, not unless the border opens, ha, ha, click. That's our representaion. Bull shit! Phone the prick back and don't leave any of them alone until they understand we need some additional tools in order for us to help ourselves.

[whiteface]

Ever heard of these "all candidate forums" Went to one tonight to excerise my democratic right to voice my concerns to those who wish to be my representative in Ottawa.

Introduced myself, and included my connection to BIG C. Told the group, and the crowd of locals that the loudest applause at our BIG C meeting was a call to end the taxpayers money going to so called bail out programs.
I went on to ask if any parties favoured loan guarantees for new gen coop packing plants.
Then I risked all the hard work that the Liberals, the ABP and rsomer have accomplished by asking if any of the parties saw hope for the dreaded T word.

Typical politcal response, but once again the story was heard, and at least made the agenda.

Any candidate forums in your area?

[grassfarmer]

I had an interesting talk with my ABP rep. tonight ahead of this upcoming ABP meeting and was very impressed with her. She is 100% behind testing and will stand up and say so. She considers herself a bit of a loose cannon!
She hadn't heard of the Cam Ostercamp essay (unbelievable!)so now I have sent it to her and look forward to her response. Let's get to work on ABP maybe they are persuadable yet - she admitted they are nearly at their wits end looking for new angles to tackle this. Also, ominously, ABP thoughts and comments are being stifled by fear of trade retaliations from the packers. Is this still a free country we live in?

[rsomer]

Regarding NAFTA.... I think we as producers have a lot to learn about NAFTA. I think even our industry is just learning about NAFTA.

If you read on the subject the purpose of NAFTA is stated as being to establish a free trade area in goods, services and investment among the three signatory countries. Also NAFTA was to increase investment opportunities, promote fair competition, and enforce intellectual property rights in each party's territory.

That sounds well and good, however the devil is in the details. NAFTA did not allow the free movement of people between the partnering countries which is a very important point seldom discussed as it means the benefits of NAFTA can accrue to one country but those benefits are denied to the citizens of the other countries. By definition therefore the benefits of NAFTA will not be evenly distributed.

Of importance to the beef industry, and this is what I think was absolutely not understood and was over looked by everyone including myself, is NAFTA did not guarantee cross border trade in live animals. Cross border trade between the NAFTA partners exploded as a result of NAFTA being signed. The Canadian beef herd grew at the same time but not because of NAFTA, it was because of the elimination of the Crow Rate Benefit and the resulting shift in the economics of raising cattle in Canada.

What NAFTA did do was cause the loss of the Canadian beef packers as the multi nationals such as Cargill and Tyson could put plants in a small market like Canada and be guaranteed access for the resulting beef products into the NAFTA partners markets. However the industry expansion due to the loss of the Crow Rate saw the increase volumes of cattle being shipped live to the U.S. This increased trade in live cattle was not guaranteed or protected. Obviously in hindsight this left Canada very vulnerable as we are the worlds second largest exporter of live cattle.

Too late smart..... If we look back, NAFTA did work reasonably well in opening our borders to bone less beef into the U.S. Although Russian had accepted limited imports of beef from Europe never before had a BSE free country accepted such significant volumes of beef from a country with a BSE positive. Our industry would have totally collapsed if this trade in beef had not taken place. As an industry we looked forward to another short time frame for the border to open to live cattle. It may not happen this time.

As producers we need to learn to distinguish between exports of live cattle and exports of beef when it comes to NAFTA. When it comes to live cattle, we are on our own. The U.S. may not open trade in live cattle as an example of how they wish to be treated by the rest of the world. The export of live cattle is not very important to the U.S. beef industry.

Our government did not look after the best interests of our industry when they pursued policies that saw American owned packers take over Canada Packers and Burns. Government buried their heads in the sand and ignored the implications of our dependency upon live cattle exports. Now it looks to me that government is not facing the realities of our industry crisis by holding back on the immediate development of the infrastructure needed to kill our own livestock production.

NAFTA has left beef producers between a rock and a hard place. We are tied into NAFTA with beef but cross border trade in live cattle can be denied. Investment in more packing plants is hampered by an insecure industry environment and tremendous competition by entrenched competitors. As a nation we need to sell beef not live cattle but how do we survive in the meantime. And who is going to build the packing plants in time much less who is going to risk their money. The feedlot industry is looking to the reopening of the border to live cattle as the solution with government risk protection to protect them against another border closure. The nature of the investment in cows is different however, longer term, and cow calf operators need the stability and assurance of market access that a domestic packing plant industry would provide. Our governments are not supporting the development of more packing plants. As producers we need to ask why not.

[rsomer]

I don't think you have to convince anyone here rsomer. Have you taken these thoughts to an all candidates forum? Have you written letters like this to the government? Have you asked to speak at a BIG C meeting, to present these thoughts to hundreds of producers, government hopefuls, and media? Just because you don't agree with 100% testing doesn't mean you cannot be part of the, soon to be, largest group of grassroots producers, trying to find solutions, ANY SOLUTIONS, to the current situation.

[pandiana]

It occurs to me that those of us that have been lobbying for construction or refurbishing of packing plants for the past year are and have been part of the solution.

[rsomer]

I am concerned that there is a lot less support for building packing plants then there needs to be. Government is very reluctanct to put money into projects. The Alberta government is openly opposed to the idea.

We need to be willing to take some risks here. The talk I hear is that the plants won't surivive. Yes, some won't but some might. People are forgetting our industry needs these plants for the industries future viability. The status quo is not acceptable. Our industry should never have to go through this again. Governments could at least help manage the financial risk of starting these plants. We are not talking about some pie in the sky diversification project, we are talking about building a stronger foundation for a major primary resouce industry in this province and country.

[blackjack]

rsomer... I see you are starting to come around ... to build the packing plant we have to have an identity that is different from Cargill and Tyson... that is why ABP and CCA have to get on side with the grassroot farmers to assist on testing... we need our checkoff dollars working to get pressure on government to set policies to insure our investment in plants are not wasted... the longer our so called leaders in the industry sit and wait for the Americans to decide our fate,
the bigger the supply and demand problems become... that is why the BIG C
movement will only get bigger for those looking for solutions in our industry...

[rsomer]

I would say that we need our checkoff dollars working to get pressure on government to set policies to insure our investment in plants is viable as the investment is needed. I do agree that longer industry sits and waits for the Americans to decide our fate the bigger our problems become. That time has passed, now we need to do something. We do not have a supply and demand problem, we have a market failure due to the monopoly situation caused by a lack of competition within the Canadian packing industry. We have the supply and the demand in the U.S. is more than enough to consume that supply. We as Canadians simply can’t get our cattle killed fast enough. The testing issue will resolve itself over time but we cannot depend upon shipping live cattle to the U.S. any longer.

[rsomer]

Here here rsomer.

I'm sorry if my words implied that those working to get packing facilities going were doing nothing pandiana. I feel the opposite, and applaud any effort.

[rsomer]

Hearing a bit of backlash about the first BIG C meeting. Rhetoric, lots of talk no action. One thing we did learn is that the mike will be given for questions after the initial speakers, and will not be turned into a sound off for political hopefuls. If they choose to ask questions, so be it. None of them told us anything new anyway.Talk about rhetoric.

As far as no solutions, there are three very clear points made for those who choose to hear them.
1). Move ahead to allow testing of beef NOW. This will not happen soon, and the process must begin.
2). Help for the New Generation Co-ops or other new packing plants with loan guarantees etc.
3). Form a new group of people to go to countries that could potentially buy our beef, and ASK THEM, how we can meet their standards.(Randy point - piss on NAFTA, and all the other rules, nobody else plays by rules)
More ideas were floated and more will come from the next meetings.
So far June 18th Lethbridge.
June 22nd Camrose.
Saskatoon, Peace Country, Innisfail, Medicine Hat, Maple Creek, and somewher in Manitoba are all being talked about at this moment.

[jtietjen]

Is there a web site where one can get information on Big C ?

thank, johann