Grass vs Grain

[cswilson]

THought I'd start a new thread as the G8 one is getting a bit long and off topic. Is grass finishing for everyone not at all. I can see it integrating because it does take a different set of skills right from production through marketing. I could see the evolution of "grass feedlots" areas of high quality well managed pastures near the markets where cattle could be sent to be topped up. Grass finished beef isn't taking consumption away from mainstream production but actually supplementing it by attracting people who for whatever reason have quit eating conventional beef. We do live in interesting times.

[whiteface]

What do you need here wilson, to be told that you are right? That you do everything just a little smarter, faster, better than everyone else? In your various postings it's sure comeing out that no matter what anyone has done you know how to do it just a little bit better, a jack of all trades and master of none. You feed out so many yearlings, you have your own pen at the local feedlot, yet you save a grassfed for your own table. You'll praise a breed of cattle in one breath and cut them to shreads in another. I don't need to go on and on, I'm not a right-fighter like you, who will scrap about anything and then decide you must be right when everyone else has simply decided to just stop listening to you complain and then go home. Thats another way you're like the cattle you raise, hot headed and always pushing through the fences, easy to keep because they continously "feed off the neighbours" (field), snort and push and bully until everyone just goes off and buys a whiteface to calm down the ferocious temper. A little like the kind of people we're dealing with to the south as well. I know you'll come back with some snappy comments to this, that's just your nature, wilson, and that whether you believe it or not, I do respect, channelled, it makes you a survivor in horrific times such as this. I for one am highly adapatable again, similar to my breed of choice and definatly do adapt based on my surroundings, price of land, consumer requests and while you refer to me as stubborn, I think stubborn refers more to your personality, I'm tenacious, quietly and persistantly rise to the top, again just like I have taken the quality of my herd to and just like I plan to try and lead our fight as country. Go ahead and sound off wilson, I know you will sure need to after this. But if you need to fight about something as useless as diversification, we all do what suits us best, it's a lost cause with me. As my grandpa used to say, "there's no use even talking to you" when you've got all the answers. I'm surprised you're not the president by now. If you need to be right wilson, you've got it! You'll have to fight with out me though, I'm not really interested in trying to "prove" whos right. I would caution you though on fighting just for the sake of fighting, some threads are starting to sound a little hypocritical.

[grassfarmer]

Excellent post on the bottom of the G8 topic cswilson, that's kind of where i'm headed. I like your idea above of having geographic areas of the country that climatically suit grass finishing but we must find a name other than "grass feedlots" or some of these new customers might run the other way!
I would also be concerned at the need to transport them to such an area if it involved long journeys. I much prefer the idea of producing, slaughtering and consuming beef in the local areas. It's better for the animals, environment,
local economy, producers pocket books and worse for the multi-nationals as it limits their access to the process and reduces their ability to steal the value out of our production chains.
There is an interesting essay available at "http://www.nehbc.org/articles.html" that perhaps,like Cam Ostercamps essay here, proved a pivital point in the grassfed movement in the US. In the eyes of the consumer it was an awakening, a realisation that they did have responsibility for the food they consume and the impact it's production has on the environment. Since it's publication the grassfed producers have been unable to meet the demand for their product.

[nerves]

I believe there is a real science to this you need to know your grass genetics as well your cows. Energy levels versus protien levels at differnt stages of growth to fatten cattle that are at differnt ages. The cattle require differnt forages at certain ages to get the most gain. The biggest problem we had was fat color we get the cattle fat then put them on a barley ration for 60 days just to change the fat color. In time there might be a market for grass finished beef but this drought needs end it is hard to grow any grass on 2 inches of rain over 4 months.

[cswilson]

Whiteface if you had read that post thoroughly I was saying I was surprised you were against grass finished beef because Hereford cattle are suited to it-I guess if you don't like my opinion don't read it-doesn't bother me.

[cswilson]

I wonder if you could top cattle up on very good quality hay-if that would still fall under the umbrella of grass finished. Maybe a person should be calling these cattle forage finished etc. As you can read it is a very interesting topic.

[cakadu]

The most important thing to remember is that it is what works for you. There is no right or wrong to this. Some may not like grass fed - personally I have eaten some that I like the taste of and some I haven't. Biggest problem - up until now - with the grassfed in North America at any rate is the consistency of the product. Like all things, that is changing. When I've eaten grassfed in Australia I don't care for the taste of it, but then some of the cattle have eaten turnips. I think if there long enough one would adjust to it.

I agree with grassfarmer that the current way we are doing things is not sustainable for the long term and we do have to make changes. What those are will depend on our management philisophies, styles, available capital, long-term goals etc.

I've never made any bones about not caring for feedlots and confined feeding operations - primarily because it does not fit with my management philosophy and I am concerned about the animals themselves. It doesn't mean that I think everyone should change - just that I will never do it. For some people doing it this way works best and if they can make money at it, then so be it.

I don't believe it has to be an all or nothing proposition - do what works best for you and what you can live with. As we've watched this whole mess play out of the past year and a bit, it has demonstrated the need for change, because the way we've been doing it just hasn't been working for us in reality.

If people are willing to pay more for what they want, then all the more power to these producers for providing it to them and continued success in building and expanding these markets. Of all the things that could happen coming out of this fiasco, I think that there will be an increase in the direct marketing end of things. Find your customers, your niche and work on that. For those that want to continue to work in the tried and true system, go for it. Let's not tear each other down for trying something outside of the ordinary. Who knows, it may just work!

[grassfarmer]

cswilson, The research in the States shows that you can't make hay of a high enough quality to get cattle to marble -whether you could "top them up on it" as you say, I'm not sure. I suppose it depends if the hay was in a small enough proportion of the diet and the grass was very good.You certainly can fatten cattle reasonably well on a good grass silage but again that is the expensive, mechanical way to do it and you lose the all important Omega 3 's they get from grazing fresh green grass.

[whiteface]

I'm certainly not against grass finished beef cswilson, and if you have the talent it takes to get the job done, I genuinly applaud you. I so far have not had the talent it apparently takes to achieve customer satisfaction although I have no doubts that it can and is done with sucess. Also my apologies for sounding off so deeply, you're absolutly right in that I jumped to my own conclusions upon reading your post. You have my respect for the ideas you bring to the table and certainly no hard feelings for the times when we may disagree.

[pandiana]

I am still a little confused as to what is generally meant by grass-finished. Maybe I can learn a little here.

Does this mean grass year round? Or grass, then hay during winter? Or grass, hay, pellets, etc as required? Grassfarmer, to you grain feed 60 days like cswilson to add extra finish and change the color or fat from yellow to white?

Cswilson, you said all your test cattle graded A. Was that Quality Grade A or Yield grade A?

[cswilson]

Hey no problem whiteface I get steamed sometimes too-as to those steers grading A1 that was a yield grade because at that time they weren't quality grading cattle-I'm just guessing they would of been single A marbling-but I'm sure they could of been improved with more good pasture. The whole yearling deal has almost moved to far forward-the grass yearling run starts in August now when it used to be late Sept.-Oct. September can be a great month for yearlings no bugs and if you have some good grass they really can harden-i've bought cattle in August and turned them back out again in the years we used to have lots of grass. In fact the oldtimers up here used to watch the manure to decide when to ship when it starts to pile instead of pie off they went.

[whiteface]

Intersting and thanks for reminding me of that "gauge for finishing." I'm not sure if you meant, cswilson, that it applied to all fed cattle, but my grandfather used the manuare to determine finish as well, maybe that was their method before technology such as ultrasound. And I actually, use it myself (although I have not admitted this much...people laughed at me!), to my grandfathers advice, when they've been on full feed (whatever type feed you're using) and the stool piles instead of shootin' through a needle is when I ask for the ultrasound to determine finish and its pretty acuurate a large portion of the time. I wish my grandpa was around today so I could thank him for some good advice, so I'll thank you cswilson, for "confirming" for me that my grandpa ( and me!) aren't total nuts!

[cswilson]

Actually whiteface cattle will try and adjust their diet themselves to keep their rumen ph steady. If you turn grass cattle out on really lush pasture in spring they will still consume a fair amount of dry straw if available-the old thread a needle stool isn't real good either-mind you i'm an A.I. tech soo maybe I'm prejudicedLOL.

[grassfarmer]

Pandiana, I can't give you dictionary definitions of grassfed beef - I don't know there are any. To me grassfed means finished on grass. I wean my calves in the fall and overwinter them on a hay/silage/straw ration with some wheatshort pellets as a supplement (cheaper and better quality ration than feeding all hay)I am opposed to intensive grain finishing in a confined environment not adding a little grain at this growing stage, in fact I need to keep them growing to hit their target slaughter weights this fall.The cattle hit the grass weighing 950-1050lbs this spring and will be killed around 1st October. Throughout this period they will receive only grass - and it will need to be top quality grass (May-June quality) right through to finish properly as the cattle will be 18-19 months old. I do not feel the need to feed grain for 60 days to change the fat colour - our product is different and I'm not trying to sell it to the packers on the strength of it's white fat. The yellow in fat is the same omega 3s showing up that makes the egg yokes bright yellow in real pastured hen eggs as opposed to the intensive raised ones you buy in the store. One concern I have is with moving the cows to later calving the calves would need to be fattened at a younger age and it's not likely we can extend top quality grazing much beyond 1st October. I have an experimental small herd calving in August/September this year which would allow me to fatten them at two years of age which means we could cut costs by utilising some more compensatory growth. We did this in Scotland and weaned the fall born calves around 1st Feb which allowed us to save feed on the cows through the spring months.
One advantage you seem to have in Alberta is the ability to grow high quality grass in September - seems to me like grass is high quality once it starts to get light frosts at night but still heat by day - I'm guessing this might concentrate sugar above ground leading to a high energy grass. I've certainly noticed outstanding weight gains on all classes of cattle on fields that were silaged then rested through August ready to graze off in September/October.