Purebred breeders

[whiteface]

Thanks for the laugh pandiana, although I know I shouldn't be laughing, it's pretty darn accurate. Cswilson what are you doing with your bulls now if your main market was cut off...selling semen? It still moves back and forth. It really does suck when your customers want a product that they are not allowed to take.

[ALICIA]

Well you's have got me running scared because I'm not hidding my identity. The way you's are talking belive me I am just a very little fish, and am planing to get even smaller because I want to work more with horses. I love my cows but the horses were always first but I couldn't do my own thing, now I can.
I am very against blue tongue and anaplasmosis, and by letting these cattle in that my have been exposed is just another exsample that our government doesn't know anything.
I played the AI game for over 20yrs and I'd say that my cow herd is not as good as it was when I started. They just got soom fancy pedigree's because I couldn't see beond the show finish of the picture in the AI books and their show record.
For the last 2 year I have been using my own bull, from a heifer I bought, that I AI her to JR 257T Rancher Y131. He is not very tall but he has but the thickness back into my calves, and one thing that I didn't loss is the udders on my cattle.
Around were I live Hereford is a dirty word and we get at least 35 cents less just because they want large big bone cattle. Plus I think that they don't like the facked that herefords are layed back and take their time, and the other are so wild that they can move them around faster because of the fear factor. So before BSE I was loosing money, I really didn't even have the kind that the purbreders wanted.
But I did have a bull that was the top gaining bull in Ontario and I'm prude of that facted, he gain 5.6 pounds a day, out of a home grown bull.
So know I'm not going to the Royal or an other large show, I have a full time job that supports my cattle hobby and horse hobby.
Of course I admire big out fits like Star Lake, Remitall, Crittenden Bros. etc. Around where I live the big guys are Medonte Highlands, BNC, Elm-Lodge etc. But I'd never talk to them because I feel I'm a small guy and would have nothing to contribute to their experence and would be afrair that I would sound like a fool.
Plus I learned my lesson a long time ago, before I relized that their was different classes of people.
I've been on this chat line from the very start, and If you go back and read some of my coments you will know that I support CANADA 100%, but I do know that the boarders will open up and I'm just not the type that turns against some one just because they happen to be on the other side of the fence at the moment. I guess when it happens to you, you learn to be better than that. But believe me that doesn't stop my mind from thinking, and taking silent notes, on who is a snob and who is not. Who knows may be they think I'm the Snob because I don't talk to them.

[whiteface]

I believe all people have something to contribute, Alicia, and I'm a Rancher fan as well by the way. (Yes, I know he's American!). You're very modest in calling yourself a little fish, you have big ideas and I will still look forward to meeting you if you'd like when I come out for the sales. I sure hope to make the Royal as well to support our buyers who will have some our cattle there. For sales, I'm thinking I'll likely be at Billy's and Jack's and we'll see how it goes from there. Thanks for the input! :-)

[cswilson]

Whiteface-I just used them on my own cows-selling bulls is not a real big part of our operation-in fact most bulls I sell are just off my commercial cows they outperform most of our purebred cows anyway. My annual bull delivery trip to Wyoming was a very well paid holiday-it is real hard to find bulls that will work just on grass. Good grass cattle do well in the feedlot but the reverse isn't very often true. I guess I better cherish the memory of 6 bulls with my brand out with their cows along the Powder River-might not be seeing that for awhile.

[ALICIA]

Whitface just who would I be looking for.
You just never now, you just could be one of those hereford breeder that I so admire.

[15444]

Alicia:

Actually, considering what you said early in your post, you are probably a step above Jack, Billy and Grant. Alot of the smaller guys and even some of the bigger ones that I met last weekend admitted that alot of the Ontario breeders have not improved the Hereford for the commercial cowman, but rather, just for the show ring.

Alot of them were shocked when I told them that our calves (and the calves of all the producers I know), are not crep fed. That just about blew their socks off. I think that they figured I was speaking some sort of weird, dumb-founded ideology. But once I reminded them that they are producing cattle to perform for the commercial guy, something seemed to click in their minds and they began to understand where I was coming from.

And just as a side note. I looked at the Rancher bull in semen catalogues many times and just seemed to pass him by. Although I know that your comments about him passing on thickness and a quality udder are probably the most common comments I have heard concerning that bull.

I too, haven't gotten caught up in the pedigree fads of the past few years. One thing that I have become deathly terrified about is the incredibly small Hereford genetic base the major breeders across N. America are creating by using Remitall genetics in their herds at every chance they get. Keynote, Boomer, Duster, Thunder, Boomer 29F, Embracer, Highway, Boulder, Foundation, Formula...and on and on the list goes. As I mentioned to quite a few breeders down East, it seems as though the purebred Hereford guy has given up any creativity he had in an attempt to catch the wave of 'hot' genetics.

Sadly, this whole idea of 'hot' genes seems to be picking up speed in the horned Herefords too. Talking to one prominent horned Hereford breeder from Alberta this spring when I got a couple of units of semen off of a bull of his, he mentioned that I should use the semen quickly as the bull is becoming the 'hot bull' in the horned Herefords. Luckily, I was in a pretty good mood, so I didn't rip him too hard on how it didn't matter that the bull was 'hot', but rather that he was over 10 years old and by this time, had high accuracies for his EPD's and countless, high quality progeny.

Currently, I am using a son of MSU Optimum Z03, a son of JRLB 621 Chivas Y168, and a great grandson of Mohican Dan for my bull power as well as some AI.

My cow's pedigrees look more like those from the 80's then the 90's. Cows from Louada Voyageur 4W, Kilmorlie Deliverance 80U, GK Sportsman 41Y, Chivas, and a few off of a Feltons 532 grandson.

In the future, probably looking at getting a few Tohan and Meadow Master cattle.

[ALICIA]

Well I'm sorry to say but we all must be looking at the same semon book (Ted Serhienko) So it would seem that genetic we are one county. The only one I've never hear of is Meadow Master. Would that be a cross of May Meadows or Dalriada Meadows and Brillinger.
Just guessing.

[whiteface]

Just in reading your posts, alicia and 15444, it wouldn't shock me in the least if I had already had the pleasure of shaking both of your hands, and I certainly look forward to doing it again. Alicia, I would be humbled and honoured if it turned out that you know of me and appreciate what I'm doing here, I absolutly never take that for granted at any time. I too, am very much a "victim" of our incredibly limited gene pool and almost always if a bull isn't in Teddy's bull book he gets passed by even though he may just be better than some of the bigger brand names being pushed. Latimers in Canada have a stranglehold on the gene pool and many of us are desperatly searching for something good and different, and that will likely be the heading in my next ad, so there you all are: if you get Ted's magazine, I've just given myself away without anyone else haveing to reveal themselves! Living only about 20 mins from Latimers, 15444, I absolutly identify with the need for outcrosses to their program, but they still have to be good because lots of guys still like to win major shows but sure don't want their cattle falling apart once their day in the spotlight is gone. The challenge to create cattle that work and win is incredible (Another hint right there, if you're a reader of Ted "bible")but something that I work incredibly hard at, and believe I am gaining ground with many repeat buyers. However, I too must buy new breeding stock on a regular basis and am extremely frusterated on where to get what I feel I we need. Trendy sure helps, but working ability is necessary and so often it is one or the other. The guys you never hear about and can't find have the best cowherd, and the ones that advertize their heads of give you a leg up in estblishing a "who's who" pedigree but frequently these cattle have had to give up some very desirable qualities in their quest for showring success. I am to an extreme I think, particular on type, pedigree, peformance (pasture and feed), efficiency, muscle pattern and soundness (structural and breeding soundness). Anyway, after all that, 15444, you named a bull that sat me straight up in my chair, Sportsman...
Have you any semen left, just daughters, how far back in the pedigree is he in your herd? His numbers have dropped somewhat but they always do when a bull excells at something, particularly milk, everyone has to run out and breed a bull like that to all their Race, Knight Ryder and Trusmark daughters to try and bring it back. I also consider that numbers can be easily manipulated by some guys, to me a pedigree counts for a lot, that's where I find I have the best ability to analyze a bull's breeding strength and determine how and where he might screw up depending on what "cockroaches are in the woodpile" (his pedigree) so to speak. Tell me more about your cowherds, 15444 and alicia. And as far as you recognizing me this fall, if you haven't already and I'm sure you have, I liked rpkaisers description of how to recognize him at the BIG C meeting in Olds, "the one with my foot in my mouth!" That description suits me to a T! I'm mean who else is so politically incorrect as to boldly take on these big outfits like the maker of Keynote and offer breeders a quality genetic alternative. Same thing with taking on our packing plants, and our right to test and market, it can't happen unless we get in there and make it happen. I guess that's just my personality, but so far, it's done allright for me. I'm glad to get to know you two better! :-)

[15444]

Alicia:

The Meadow Master bull is from Crystal Brook, aka Ron and Nadine Wells. He is a Thunder son off of a great Spark daughter. He was Junior Champion and Reserve Grand Champion at the Royal last year. There is a full page ad on him on page 31 of the Winter 2004 issue of the Ontario Hereford News. When I looked at the ad, I thought he was a decent looking bull, but maybe he was carrying a little too much fat? So I went with Ron and Nadine to Maple Ridge Farms where the bull is right now, and what a knockout he was! He lost all of that excess fat and muscled up really well. He has the muscle pattern of Spark and basically the same frame structure, lower to the ground but super long. Maple Ridge and Crystal Brook both have calves on the ground from this bull. The calves are pretty good looking, although they seem to lack a little depth because of the particular muscle pattern that the bull throws. Ron has had a few inquiries to draw semen on the bull, but hasn't as of yet. Hopefully he will so I can try Meadow Master out!

Whiteface:

Haha, yeah I have most of the T Bar C books for the 90's and keep them as handy references. Sadly, I have to say that most of the bulls I haved used have been in those books. But in the past couple of years I have just barely glanced at them because of the very few cattle that don't have Remitall in the pedigree. But I am starting to rely on the book less and more on word-of-mouth as well as ads in the Hereford Today and CHA Digest.

Can definately tell you that I will be looking for your ad in the next Hereford Today book as it will be nice to see a new bull or cow on the block that isn't the result of a massive Remitall gene pool.

As far as the Sportsman bull, I had four units of him, used three and had one take, hence I still have one more that I will be using this spring. I also have 2 units of GK Sport semen (Sportsman son). I don't think that Sport has quite as much thickness as Sportsman, but has a higher EPD for milk. The one unit that did catch, I used on my best cow which is a Kilmorlie Deliverance 80U daughter. And the resulting heifer that I got in 2000 is probably my second best cow. Now in the daughter, Sportsman added a particular muscle pattern that I find very pleasing. He also gave a greater spring to the rib and put on a excellent set of fet and legs.

I will be using the last Sportsman unit on the same Deliverance cow and hopefully will get a full sister to the one I already have.

Now, because of the accuracies, the Sportman daughter I have doesn't get a very good rap for her EPD's, but here they are:

CE BW WW YW -1.9 4.7 27.2 52.1
0.10 0.24 0.20 0.19

MCE Milk Tmat SC COW
-0.8 5.0 18.6 0.3 0.8
0.08 0.21 0.14 0.62

Stay MPI
0.9 109.7
0.45 0.35

Perf WT AdjWT Index
BTH 85 85 96.4
WNG 550 520 110.7
YLG 865 793 111.3

[15444]

Whoops, guess that didn't work out to well. Maybe this will work better.

CE = -1.9 ACC. = 0.10

BW = 4.7 ACC. = 0.24

WW = 27.2 ACC. = 0.20

YW = 52.1 ACC. = 0.19

MILK = 5.0 ACC. = 0.21

TMAT = 18.6

SC = 0.3 ACC. = 0.14

COW = 0.8 ACC. = 0.62

STAY = 0.9 ACC. = 0.45

MPI = 109.7 ACC. 0.35


Perf----WT------AdjWT---Index
BTH-----85------85------96.4
WNG-----550-----520-----110.7
YLG-----865-----793-----111.3

But if your looking for Sportsman semen, you might have a hard time. Your best bet would probably be to contact Mud River Polled Herefords (aka Glen Wicklund) in BC or go through Reed Enterprises in Missouri. Wicklund owns the Sport bull and probably has lots of semen off of him and maybe a few units of Sportsman. Reed has Sportsman semen listed in his catalogue, so he probably has some.

[15444]

Nice to see you folks talking so positive about the potential for future genetics etc. This Canadian purebred cattle industry is also second to none, and involves some of the brightest breeders in the world. I would hope that all of us can look beyond the individual radicals in the U.S.A. and continue to be hopeful that we can and will do business in the future. Beleive me, Americans will always look to Canada more than we look to them for genetics, especially with people that study industry needs like whiteface, cswilson, 1544, and others. Make your stand but don't bite off the hand that could feed your purebred indusrtry in the future.

[whiteface]

Aw, come on Randy, a little bite once in a while?
Thanks so much for the suggestions on finding 41Y semen...
Have already exhausted every avenue. Glen doesn't have any, Sport was an option but I feel is not out of a cow that enhances his dads qualities (in other words, not even close to his dad in quality although no fault of the ol' man himself). Sportsman semen at Reeds is not Canada qualified last I checked ( about a year ago) maybe somethings changed since then but I just kind of keep my ears open for unique breeding opportunities, (like meeting someone on agri-ville with a "stash" that no one knows about!). Many of my buyers do come as a genetic option to Remitall and I strive to keep that (ain't no other way to compete with them!) I have a lot of older semen some of it may be of the last of it's kind in Canada that I save usually for transplant purposes to maximize the use of the limited amounts, I always pay attention looking for more though, the pressure to expand our gene pool is incredible. Thanks for the E.P.D.'s on your cow, they are pretty impressive and being out of Deliverance is nice also, he left some good ones too. Thanks for saying you'll look for our next ad, although, how fair is this game? All I know about you is that you have a Sportsman daughter that I want, how the heck am I going to find you...and her?

[15444]

Well, if you send me your e-mail, whiteface, I'll send you some contact info and an older pic of the Sportsman cow along with her full pedigree. I actually can't wait to breed her mother back to Sportsman as the daughter is almost showring quality but lost part of her ears and tail as a calf, so she resulted in just being a solid pasture cow instead.

My e-mail is: next_gen_cowboy@hotmail.com

Too bad you couldn't find any Sportsman semen. I once got frustrated quite a few years back when I had a Ascendant certificate lying around and no remaining semen from that bull. So I got to phoning and emailing a bunch of people and low and behold, Ottawa Valley in Navan, Ontario had 3 units of Ascendant and 6 units of Kilmorlie Baron that they didn't want! Said I could take them if I paid the shipping, which I did in about half a second!

[cswilson]

Would any of you guys be interested in semen off the old Walpole Cheque bull-I've got ten units of him in my tank.

[whiteface]

Thanks 15444, I'll contact you tommorrow, I'm a little tired tonight. I'm thinking I'll sure like to see a photo of your cow. Maybe she's flush material, if you're into that. If you're not, I am, maybe I can talk you into it. Cswilson, I was partners with Fred Mason for years on a very good bull until we sold him to the States. Cheque was the best Fred ever made and with his passing some of these old bulls are like rembrants, they become quite valuable. Cheque was very good, I'm tired tonight, let me sleep on it. How did you end up with semen on him anyway? You might want to consider using it yourself...