BIC-C policy

[rsomer]

Kato: as usual, insightful comments. I think all the ag ministers, provincial and federal want very much to see a solution to the BSE crisis.

Rpkaiser: I did not threaten your bull sales if you continued to show support for R-Calf. I said and I quote "I am frankly astounded at your views on R-Calf. You may want to reconsider those views since you are selling breeding stock to the Alberta livestock producer." Although that thread is corrupted now and your actual comments are missing you were expressing quite a bit of support for R-Calf and R-Calf is a dirty word in many producers books. I am sorry if you thought I took personal exception to your statements, I did not. I have seen quite a few comments in these threads where Canadian producers were advocating not purchasing breeding animals or genetics from known R-Calf supporters, that is all.

I noted rpkaiser’s advice to reread Cam Ostercamp’s essay but found it has been deleted from Lee Gunderson’s web site. Upon review, Cam Ostercamp is definitely advocating 100% testing, the term mandatory testing and 100% testing are used interchangeably. Grassfarmer has pointed out when used in the context of Japan, 100% testing means testing every live animal, even calves so young the test cannot possibly detect BSE. Ostercamp clearly wants mandatory testing of all animals slaughtered.

On a cheerier note, got a nice shower tonight. It is needed and very welcome. Just finished seeding a quarter section to grass so the moisture will help get it off to a good start. Guess I still see a future in cattle if I am seeding grass.

[grassfarmer]

BIG-C (Beef Initiative Group-Canada)is a group founded in Alberta in recent weeks based on information contained in the essays of Cam Ostercamp, a rancher from Blackie, AB. Cam has produced an excellent analysis of the beef industry in Canada and outlines how our industry is on the brink due to an over reliance on the US as our only market. He sees a chance to increase our beef markets worldwide by thinking differently. The essay is available at
"www.costercamp.org" There is currently a campaign of rallies being held across the country by the BIG-C to promote this way of thinking. Producers should take the opportunity to hear someone with a vision and ideas for the industries future wellbeing. Please support this campaign - don't sit back and believe the "border will open soon" as Speller always says, this may be something to do with the fact they are struggling in the election polls? We must get some positive action going in this industry now to have any chance of getting bearable calf prices in the Fall. I for one have given up waiting for politicians to help us out.

[grassfarmer]

Okay rsomer I se where you are going with this.

Yes Ostercamp clearly wants testing of all animals destined for markets that want testing done. However he, or we, are not saying that Canada should mandate 100% testing of all animals slaughtered in Canada period. (As the fear monguering ABP boys would have people beleive). Only those destined for export markets that ask for it.

Are we on the same page now?

[grassfarmer]

I must type too slow, rpkaiser beat me to it!
rsomer, you quote me as pointing out "when used in the context of Japan, 100% testing means testing every live animal, even calves so young the test cannot possibly detect BSE."
The only reason my name, Japan and 100% testing came up in the same thread were to refute your point that a long list of European countries were testing 100% and Japan still wasn't buying their beef when in fact as far as I know Japan is the only country in the world testing all their domestic production.

[rsomer]

grassfarmer: That is true but it is also true that Japan has never imported any beef from any country that has had a BSE positive. Many European countries test 100% of their over 24 months of age cattle yet Japan does not allow imports of their tested product. Japan is importing just about all its beef from Australia, a country that tests only 500 head a year and as a result hasn’t found a positive case. Even within Japan there is not universal support for 100% testing as many point out the science does not support it and no test can detect BSE in under bovine animals under 24 months of age. Removal of SRMs provides the real food safety, not the test. A trading nation like Japan may someday rue the day that it undermined science-based trading rules.

Prior to May 20 Canadian beef exports to Japan totaled just under 20,000 tonnes in the year to March 2003 -- some 3.7 percent of Japanese beef imports, not the 25% claimed by Cam Ostercamp. How soon we forget... In July of 2003, prior to the Washington Holstein in December, Japan went as far as saying that American beef will not be accepted into the Japanese market unless it can be determined that it is not of Canadian origin. That ban on American beef was extended two months to September 1. At that time the U.S. was still BSE free. It is very, very optimistic to believe that Japan will accept any imports of Canadian beef tested or not. Certainly there is no reason to believe our level of imports would rise about the 3.7 percent market share we had before BSE.

Where we do have an opportunity to expand our sales of beef is to Mexico. During the first quarter of 2004 Canadian exports to Mexico were 160% of previous years. And Mexico was not demanding tests. Exports to the little country of Macau has exceeded all expectations as beef is transhipped through Macau to China. These countries are not requiring tests of our beef as they recognize the science and the miminal risk status of Canada.

However as producers we are not seeing an economic benefit from these exports and we won’t until the monopoly Cargill and Tyson Foods has in our market is broken. It will be no different if the exports were to Japan, Asia or Europe. Canada was dependent on the U.S. for more than live cattle sales, we were dependent upon the U.S. to provide competition in our meat packing industry. Canada has no rules on packer ownership of cattle or any effective controls on Cargill and Tyson conspiring to artificially control our beef industry. The Parliamentary committee looking into excessive packer profits was easily stopped by the Conservatives before any effective measures could be taken.

Diversifying our markets, while good, will not provide more packing space or fairness in our packing industry. If our beef industry groups wanted to pursue a policy that would make a genuine difference in the short term it would be to lobby our federal government for policies that would see the excessive packer profits roped in and corralled. Building packing plants to provide competition takes too much time. In the short term governments cannot continue to pour billions into agriculture that all get diverted to the packing plants through artificially low prices paid to producers. Our federal government has the tools to restore fairness in our beef industry. It is about high time that happened. Whether that involves price controls of some kind that may be what it takes. We need an immediate market intervention and we need it now. BIG C is just blowing smoke when they are talking test 100% or mandatory test or whatever term is in vogue at the next rally. That provides no solution at all until 2 years from now when more packing plant capacity it built, if then. We need this fixed right now. The packers can still get a real good profit but they don’t have to take all the profit. If Cargill and Tyson were paying a fair price for our cattle there would be enough money in the industry for everyone to survive until such time as we work through this BSE crisis.

There has been too much talk about test 100%. And there has been too much time spent waiting for the border to open. There is not time to save our industry by building more packing plants even though that provides a longer term solution. It is time that government stepped into the marketplace and stopped the BS. And believe you me they can do it. And I can tell you something else. A Conservative government will not do it. They are made that clear when they stopped the packers from getting fined for not opening their books to Parliament.

[rsomer]

Exactly right rsomer, too much talk about 100% testing. Who the hell is doing all the talking? Why is there such a need for you and the other radicals at ABP to tear down a grassroots producer group based on one of the principles of the group. Never admit that opening new markets will change the monopoly Cargil and Tyson have, so long as that opening involves testing!!!!!!!!
Of course we need to change things right now. Of course, of course of course. How many times do you need to be told that you are right.
Keep hammering away about solutions, but continue to try to destroy the credibility of anyone who disagrees with you.

By continueing to stick with your mainstream ideas, you have put yourself in a very vulnerable position, as you have told us.

Most of the founding members of BIG C are hurting as well, but most have also looked outside the box, and created markets in a world you would have us beleive none exists. Yes these markets are SO FAR domestic, however export markets do exist, and we need policy change to supply those markets immediately.

I hope you come out and challenge BIG C at the next meeting rsomer, your 100% testing offensive might make you feel above the crowd, but I doubt it.

This past week has been nothing but talk from ABP about testing. Why not focus on the positives that you all talk of and put the badge back on your chests. Attacking BIG C is only making more and more primary producers suspicious of your ultimate goals.

[pandiana]

As usual, rsomer, I agree with most of what you have said with one little exception.
Your comment:"Even within Japan there is not universal support for 100% testing as many point out the science does not support it and no test can detect BSE in under bovine animals under 24 months of age. Removal of SRMs provides the real food safety, not the test. A trading nation like Japan may someday rue the day that it undermined science-based trading rules." Although totally in line with the current OIE rules, removal of SRMs provide only the 'perception' of real food safety. I am totally unconvinced that one can remove all potentially infected nervous tissue, blood etc. from a carcass especially in an assembly line scenario. In particular, considering the suggestion that contaminated instruments, even though autoclaved, are believed to have infected surgical patients. However, until such time as the so-called science moves from hypothesis to proven science, we can only play with the cards we are dealt. The bottom line; the incidence of BSE in the North American herd is very, very, very low, even if we find another 200 cases.

[kato]

Making noise about testing has gotten more attention paid to our problems than anything else we've tried.

Even if it won't save us initially, it may make our future better. I don't think mandatory testing of all cattle is the answer, not by a long shot. I also don't believe that anyone who wants to test should be stopped, if testing is requested by the customer.

It's being "allowed" to test that's the important thing.

The LAST thing in the world that our neighbour's to the south want is for us to allow any testing at all.

USDA won't allow independent packers to test...it may give them a competitive advantage over the big boys. If they don't want their small packers to have an edge, they sure don't want us to have one.

The more they see us setting ourselves up to move forward, the less they like it. They would lose a lot if we got out from under their control, and actually offered them some competition in international markets.

[blackjack]

rsomer... how come the ABP won't admit to the grassroot producers that our beef went to the states to be packaged and then sent to Japan... that would make your statistics a little misleading in that maybe Canada could send beef to Japan if we applied to their rules not the Americans rules...myself find it ironic that Alberta government wants to open free markets to the grain farmer but on the other hand tell the cattle producers that the governments rules on BSE are the right one ... what a bunch of crap...

[blackjack]

rsomer... how come the ABP won't admit to the grassroot producers that our beef went to the states to be packaged and then sent to Japan... that would make your statistics a little misleading in that maybe Canada could send beef to Japan if we applied to their rules not the Americans rules...myself find it ironic that Alberta government wants to open free markets to the grain farmer but on the other hand tell the cattle producers that the governments rules on BSE are the right one ... what a bunch of crap...

[rsomer]

Gee people where did you get the idea I am Mr. ABP. I am not. My opinions are my own and I do not claim to wrap myself in the banner of any organization, ABP or Western Stockgrowers or Cattle Feeders or otherwise in order to give substance to my opinions and comments. If anyone wants to know what the ABP policy is on any issue phone the ABP Calgary office. For real... my comments and opinions are my own and do not represent any organization of any sort. I am sure all of us belong to some group or another even if it is the local Legion or curling club but that doesn’t mean our opinions are not our own and that we cannot express our own point of view in this forum.

[cowman]

I believe rsomer has a pretty good grasp of the big picture but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says!
First of all is this question? When did I ever sign anything that said I couldn't "voluntarily test my darned cattle"!? When did I give up that right?
The other thing I don't agree with is his contention that somehow the Liberals are the solution?
In fact they are a den of thieves...and Paul Martin is their leader! This is a fact...don't vote for these thieves!!!
I don't know if Big C is a bunch of loonies! I intend to just take a bit of a look for myself at Olds this thursday. But Lord knows at least they are trying to do something which is more than can be said for anyone else?
How much is your jerk MP or MLA doing?
Oh, and by the way rpkaiser, why would you ever think I would own a bloody orange cowboy hat? I've NEVER worn a bloody cowboy hat in my life and I sure don't intend to start now...I repeat I am not a cowboy! But still I hope to see you there...health permitting!