Packer expansion?

[cowman]

With Tysons announcement of expansion of 1000 head/day do you think Cargill will follow their lead? How about XL?
When the government money starts to flow will all three of these companies be there with their hands out? Now say Cargill and Tyson gear up to kill another 10,000/week...where does that leave XL...would there be enough fat cattle for them to stay in business?
Perhaps they would move even further into "niche" markets(cows)? Now I'm not sure how many cattle XL can kill at XL Calgary and I assume they do around 700 head a day at Moosejaw, so would a move by XL Calgary into exclusive cow kill, give us enough slaughter capacity to take care of the cow problem?
Perhaps the day isn't so terribly far off when we can actually get all our cattle killed here? Everything in a box? By the time this packer expansion is done the border should be opened to boxed beef, at least?
Obviously Tyson believes there is a good future in packing in Canada...and they have to be looking beyond the present situation? Now it might be that they realize the primary producer and the feeder are in all likely hood not going to make it and they are prepared to step in and take over from them? They would probably prefer that others keep these losing ventures but in the big picture they have the money to run the whole darned thing if they have to?
They somehow or other definitely see a future here if they are investing big bucks in the industry?

[rsomer]

I would question whether Tyson is investing "big bucks". Compared to the hundreds of millions they have ripped off producers and government, the $17 million Tyson is investing in increased plant capacity is a token sum.

I am sure Tyson and Cargill see a future in our beef industry. I am concerned that their vision of the future is total ownership and control over Canadian beef, which is pretty much what you suggest.

At some point producers and our industry leaders are going to need their own vision of the future and how profitability can return to the industry. I do not believe that vision can include either Tyson or Cargill. Sure the pirates will offer us token investment in our industry in return for control over the industry’s future but that is not an offer we can accept.

Hopefully no government money is going to Tyson to build this expansion.

Our industry leaders, ABP and CCA, need to distance themselves from the pirates and approach government to develop solutions that work for producers, not Tyson and Cargill.

[kato]

What their announced expansion effectively does is lower the prospects for any new proposed plants.

It's called getting rid of the competition before it even gets started.

I agree that they see a future here. A better future than in the States. Canada has no laws to protect the primary producer, unlike the States.

American cattlemen complain that their laws that are supposed to protect them do not work, but I'd like to see them try and live with no protection at all, like we do here.

Sitting here and looking south across the border, it boggles the mind that those guys can complain about their hardships like they do. From our perspective, they haven't even had a tast of real troubles....yet. (They haven't found a domestic cow yet.)

[kato]

It is so tough when these peolpe who are proposing producer owned plants are seen as anything but good. Business is so damned afraid of someone getting a leg up, that we tend to sit back and watch while Cargil, Walmart, etc. etc. forge ahead. Our best hope, as an indusrty, is that producers remember the profits made on their backs by these big boys in our time of crisis, and step up to the plate, when the new kids on the block need support.

I support any new initiative, and promise to avoid Cargil and Lakeside at every opportunity in the future. Not sure what to to with my old cull cows yet this fall, but am looking at any option.

I am seriously looking at the long term solution of one or more levy funded plants in Canada. The original plan presented to BIG C by Gerry Fleming may need a bit of adjustment, but it sounds to me to be a way for producers to take back some control of this industry.

What better way to start than to have the grassroots producers build the plants themselves?
We all agree that we need a way out, and also all agree that it is hard to find lump sums of producer money these days.
What could be fearful about using levy money to build, and have that money turn into shares in the company? This is not a socialist scheme, but a capitalist venture with thousands of shareholders.
What kind of feedback can you folks give me?
Of course there must be questions, and ideas. That is what a grassroots movement is about.

[grassfarmer]

As rsomer says our industry leaders and Government need to be distancing themselves from any expansion by the twin pirates as it can only worsen primary beef producers woes. I have been thinking of nothing else for several days - HOW CAN WE GET THIS BROUGHT INTO THE PUBLIC EYE? We absolutely need to have this topic raised in the mainstream media and highlighted for the outrage it is. Has anyone any ideas? this may be the time for an "extreme stunt" if we can't get media attention any other way. Perhaps the time has come for a blockade of beef leaving the plants. I'm just a cow/calf guy but what is Rick Paskal thinking just now? How can we pull these different sectors together to fight the common enemy?

[cakadu]

What would happen if those of you represented by the various cattle organizations at both the federal and provincial level started asking your delegates/representatives where they stand in terms of certain issues like finding new markets, new packing capacity, supporting more initiatives that spread around the value?

I've heard a lot of disenchantment, disgust, and calls for these people to be replaced. If your delegate couldn't answer your questions to your satisfaction, would you vote for him/her again in the upcoming elections? Would some of you that are seeking change be willing to run? The only way to start to move forward from the status quo is to start making the changes that you need to move.

Tell me more about what you would like your organizations to do for you? Are you willing to just see the US market opened up to live cattle again or do you want new markets sought so that we don't ever get caught in this situation again?

It may be time to find and elect those people that truly represent your best interests and will do so beyond getting elected.

[blackjack]

cakadu... it is to late for a group like ABP... I was hoping they would show leadership in helping the producers to get together to start our own packing packing plant... I can see its not going to happen until the cow-calf man realise is source of buyers are quickly drying up... will have to wait and see after this falls sales to see whether the ranchers will join a group like the BIG-C to get a packing plant built...

[kato]

There are things we can do. But we need to do them now.

If you don't like how your producer group is representing you, then run for office. Or find a smooth talker who is wanting change to do it. (We all know one of those! LOL) Anyone can be a director, the only requirement is the time and the desire for change.

Feed your own cattle, if you have the skills, facilities and cash flow. If you must sell your calves, try to sell to someone other than the big packer filled feedlots. Or have them custom fed by local guys.

If the middleman is a packer, then cut him out of the picture. Our industry is small enough that you can get a pretty good idea of where cattle are going. I know it's not possible for a lot of guys to do this, but if enough do it, then there are less calves available for the packers to bid on and at least that would help the price.

Every little bit helps.

Don't give in to them. There is a lot of despair and pessimism going around right now. I've talked to people who have just basically given up. They say there's no point in trying to change things, because it won't work. This is our biggest danger. Believing the nay-sayers.

Remember that most of the 'leaders' who say change will not work are the same people who have something to lose if it does.

Almost everything we do and use today has at one time or another been labelled as impossible. If everyone listened to common 'knowledge' we would still be living in caves.

[cakadu]

Kato, the smooth talkers are fine because they say what we want to hear. Shouldn't we want someone leading that will walk the talk and act with integrity?

It's never too late for change and to try something new. It is the apathy or the feeling that it will never work that gets one down. There is a sense of accomplishment if one tries something.

The focus on getting the border open to live cattle is one solution, but is it the best solution and whom is it best for?

We can and should be asking for more from our leadership besides the words to get elected. Following up on the words is harder, but those are the people that we need. Yes, I understand that the wheels of politics (including the "p"olitics)often grind very slowly. As long as we keep them grinding forward, then aren't we accomplishing something?

Is the best we can hope for a resumption of an open border, or do we want more in order to protect our interests?

[nerves]

Cakadu change is always hard to accept but now it will be do or die. This cattle industry is like the titanic only the packers have lifeboats, the rest of us have to build our own boats or practise the dogpaddle. To do nothing but dogpaddle it will work for awhile but you will get tired and get sucked under when the Titanic sinks. Last week by the government buidings in Red Deer M and M meats had one of the oneway streets blocked off and was selling beef. Awhile back on one of thease threads I saw that M and M meats was Austrailan and New Zealand beef is this true so we can start to spread the word.

[Horse]

Not so many yr ago there was 300 hd feed lots all over and any one with 300/400 acres of grain fed cattle until people like cor van ray and rick pascal and tyson and ect decided they could corner the market with borrowed money and force the smaller feeder out of buisness now there are lots feeling sorry for them because they lost someones elses money , Hard to figure
We as producers of calves could feed our own calves and mabey a few bought ones if the money hungry mega feeders would back out of the feeding business and we would all be better off and the calves would still all get fed.

[kato]

By 'smooth talker' I mean one of those individuals who has the gift for getting a point across. If there was ever a time to 'get our point across' it's now.

I know in our immediate neighbourhood, I could easily have found well over two thousand head of fat cattle being fed at home last winter without really looking too hard.

These are owned by people who for years sold their calves in the fall, but don't any longer. They are all planning on feeding their own calves out again.

I wouldn't be surprised if Manitoba is a bit ahead of the trend on this, but it's something worth looking into wherever you are.

Now, getting them slaughtered, well that's another story!

[cswilson]

When the Beef Stabilization Plan was up and running in Sask. there were tons of steers fed up in this neck of the woods too. The best part of the whole deal was the single desk selling I think-we sold fats from Greeley to Ontario on there. We tried to start a community venture feedlot in 2002 was pretty disappinted when we couldn't find a building site but maybe we dodged a bit of a bullet after all.

[grassfarmer]

Kato, how have the guys that wintered and fed out their own calves in Manitoba made out? Are you finding buyers for them. How do the returns look compared to selling them last fall or in the spring?

[kato]

They are getting by. Not getting rich, though. I know one guy who direct marketed a lot of his, and did quite well, other than one bounced cheque.

If they had sold last fall they would have been better off.... as long as they hit a good day at the auction mart. The market was all over the place. It would go up and down by 15 to 20 cents a day, so if you hit it right, it was fine, but if you hit it wrong, you would have been better off keeping them.

We never sell in the fall, so decided to just do what we do. Except that 'what we do' is usually sell short keeps in January and Feb. We all know what the shortkeep market was in February. We figured for 40 cents a pound, we might as well finish them.

If we had known in the fall that was going to happen we would have already moved most of them by now, because we would have fed them harder, earlier. The short keep market normally doesn't like fat 900-1000 pound steers, so we fed accordingly. Then we had to 'put it to them', so to speak. They're looking pretty sharp now though.

Who's to know what the right move was, because I don't think there is such a thing as a right move any more.

I know this fall they're coming home, and going on feed right away.