Time to revisit depopulation discussion

[BFW]

It is my opinion that a cull of some of the mature animals in the system is the only we will keep the cattle industry's head above water will the politics created by BSE here in Canada are worked out. An organized, humane disposal of our older animals will have several positive outcomes including:

1> Disposal of cows born before the feed ban allows some of the most at risk animals for BSE to be tested thus determing our level of prevalence of BSE in the herd.

2> These animals will meet a humane end. We do not need the public relations nightmare of hundreds of emaciated cattle dying on pastures because their owners have run out of money to buy feed or worse have simply given up.

3> It is an opportunity to improve the quality of and lower the age of an ageing cowherd. This allows the cow-calf industry the chance to retain heifers for breeding and gives us almost 2 years before having to worry about production from them.

4> The resulting removal of these heifers from the feeder market will result in significantly higher prices paid for the remaining feeders and ultimately will lead to a shorter supply of finished cattle causing the packer to at least somewhat compete for cattle to fulfill slaughter requirements.

Just some ideas, but I think we need to plan how we can have this industry in as good as shape as possible for when trade does resume or for when increased capacity comes on line here. If we don't start thinking this way I don't think many will be left standing to see it.

[15444]

BFW:

If it came to the point where we de-populated the older cowherd to some extent, how smart would it be for people to then stop and keep their heifers as replacements? Seems like a good idea to boost feeder prices sure, but if I remember correctly, an ever-increasing cowherd is our main problem?

If we kept those heifers back for breeding, we are just screaming to the world that we are the dumbest SOB's around....trying to create more and more beef for a market that is already saturated. In a perfect world, if we slaughtered a big portion of the cowherd, then it should be mandated that nobody can keep replacement heifers for the next few years. Then you would see the cow numbers come down to a more reasonable figure pretty quick!

The CCA and the Export Federation are screaming that if we take our cow numbers down, then when the border does open, we won't have enough to supply the American market. Seriously? I don't think anybody would mind taking the Canadian herd down to increase our prices in the short-term, and cashing in on great prices in an undersupplied beef market post-border opening.

Maybe it should be suggested that we start burying people like Ted Haney and Stan Eby before we start burying cows?! Might get us a bit further in this mess.... :P

[ALICIA]

15444- Your sugestion is good, but I've already dumped my older cow herd but for 13 head. The rest is 5 yearling that will calf in January and I have keep 5 heifer calfs. And your right, I still have the very same amount as I did last year. But the average age of my cow herd is 3 to 4 yrs old.
I'm in the market for a bull. I've been thinking of selling my 3 yr old rancher because I've keeps the top 5 heifers and I need a bull that will do a good job on these heifers next spring. Also I should get more heifers from him next spring. Whiteface & 15444 any ideas on a bull to match my heifers. The heifers have real good back ends, thick and meaty, but real feminine looking.

[cowman]

Both Arno Doerkson and Ben Thorlakson have floated this idea in the last few days. Now they are sort of wishy-washy about the whole thing...suggesting we delay until after the American election!
Then they go on to say these cows(they mention 500,000) would be difficult to get killed as we have no facilities!
Facilities? Go out to the desert in east central Alberta, dig a pit, buy a million rounds of ammo and go to it! How hard is that?
It is time to realize this thing isn't about science, or food safety! It is about trade and power and money...pure and simple?
Our government fumbled the ball! They created this oversupply because they were too weak kneed to stand up to the international thieves who ruled the grain trade back in the eighties and nineties.
In my opinion this is the only option we have. The other option is to do nothing! Eventually when prices become bad enough the situation will take care of itself. The cow/calf and feeder sector will go broke and the really big players will be forced to take over! In the big picture it won't matter but in the "little picture" there is going to be a whole lot of pain for the individual.

[15444]

Alicia:

For a new bull, I would say that a son off of the STAR TOHON 25M ET bull would make a nice combination with your heifers. Of any of the new bulls on the market, I really like him. His heifers seem to maintain thickness and femininity. But there are some really good looking bulls coming into the Hereford industry again, so your options are wide open!

[kato]

Does anyone know what would happen to our BSE status if every animal born before the feed ban was gone?

How many pre-97 animals are still around? If we got paid for ours, they'd be gone.

[whiteface]

The situation will definatly correct itself eventually...and in all likelyhood will mean many people go under but will be people of all classes not just the "little" guys that go. Remember the "little" guys have less invested and less to lose with the price drop of the cattle ( if all cows have fallen in price of $500.00 then the guy with 10 head is down far less in equity than the guy with 1000 head, also has better opportunity to "get in" at less money than in any other year...it won't stay like this forever...buy low, then sell high!) I also predict that the "ageing cowherd owners" will also be many of the ones to go and younger aggressive (dumber???!!!) cattle men and women will move in to take their place. Hope that doesn't sound harsh but I do believe it happens in every business and in regular cycles. I am thrilled to hear Alicia that you're not looking like one of the "drop offs" and in fact may be looking for a bull. I like Tohan quite a bit too but I do want to say he is of about as high a maintenace bull as you can get. He looks good and will show well this fall and if you like to advertize and show and have a beautiful set of dark, pigmentd calves to present to visitors and don't mind putting a little feed into them to keep them looking good he rates waaaay up there! He's the kind of bull that I sure don't mind playing around with and the pedigree with no Latimer genetics I think is a huge drawing card. A lesser maintenance kind of bull would be something like Formula ( who incidentally is selling this fall at public auction! I think I might be there in case someone else doesn't put up their hand enough times!) Keep in mind though, while there might be some "advertizing" to go with the purchase of a bull of this calibre, he is now "old news" as everyone faster paced in the industry strives to find the greatest in genetic advancement. I have a "watchfire" son out of a great old Klondike cow that I will be doing quite a bit of promotion on. Likely even in Ted's book next year, we'll see how it goes. Without tooting my own horn too loudly, our Hattrick calves are still some of the best and most competitive, showring or pasture anywhere. Making awesome cows and the pretty fronted, thick butted type that is always sought after by the industry. I know the freight is up there but frequently I have a handful of calves go out to Ontario every fall, maybe one or two end up at your place, Alicia. 15444 I got your package, thank you very much, just got home from a visit in B.C. with Montie Soules and some other friends at the MOE in Abbotsford and will email you just as soon as I can. Hereford field day and meeting had us some visitors over the last week, it's been busy but thank you all for the interest!

[whiteface]

I have 4 Kato and for sure, I would love a government program to buy out the over '97 cows, test them, incinerate ( or whatever ) them and move forward with a reduction and upping our BSE status. Most of our old cows went in the drought but these four were some of our best old matrons and are still in good shape. They won't go for $100.00 but might in a year or so at $700.00 if the government offered to buy them, assuming prices hadn't changed any time soon. :-)

[grassfarmer]

As far as everything born pre-97 being disposable - mine aren't, I've got some pedigree Luing cows born in 86 and 87 that I won't give up without a fight. If everyone else thinks it's fine to kill everything over 7 years old because they are old we must have a lot of useless cows in the country. Now more than ever we need to be selecting cattle with longevity as it is a very important trait post-bse with reduced cull values likely for many years. Killing our old cows off and selecting replacements from only our young ones is positively selecting for lower longevity.
Speaking of these old Luing cows I should point out the herd they came from had all their UK imports born in the 1980s killed off in the early 1990s (just after the Saler import with bse I think)- this was the Canadian scheme implemented to prevent possible bse introduction from the UK. So how come the new cases of bse in Canada are blamed on rendered UK imports? Talk about garbage science!

[jensend]

i agree with grassfarmer. we aould be killing off the proven animals which should be providing genetics into the future. the other issue i have with this proposed action is that we would be shrinking the economy of significant areas. does alberta want to take the saskatchewan approach? a smaller herd means fewer job opportunities and less spinoff economic activity. this would be a step backwards. we should be putting massive efforts into regaining markets rather than throwing away what has been built over the past number of decades.

[whiteface]

Good points grassfarmer and jensend and just for the record, I sure appreciate where you are comeing from in the terms of valuable genetics and longevity. Maybe I should have qulified my statement of being willing to let my older cows go only once they had been transplanted and only once they were no longer useful... which is not just yet other wise they would have gone during the drought like a lot of others. Still in great shape and genetics, especially valuable ones, are something no responsible breeder would ever just toss out on a whim, that is our responsibility as purebred breeders or even quality crossbred cattle breeders. I would like our government to make up the difference on those cows that we're not getting for them now at such time that they're ready to go. It was our wonderful govrnment that helped get us into this mess.

[whiteface]

I sure seem to be doing a lot of "double-posting" ... I agree with you 1000% jensend, let's do everything possible to re-open our markets before we just toss our valuable breeding herds, incidentally, I can't remember where but I'm sure I asked about why did Japan view our beef as different from the U.S.? What's stopping us from getting that market from the States anyway. Point me back to the thread I have it on or reiterate for my early developing Alzheimers. Thanks guys! I must have more on my plate than I can handle these days!

[BFW]

I can understand the reluctance of a producer to severely cull a herd that he has invested much time, effort, and money in. Unfortunately however, it is still a strategy that to succeed depends largely on the resumption of trade with the US. Obviously ,I believe that this will occur at some point but if we do not take some serious measures to address the growing number of total cattle in the system the effects of the border opening, when it does happen, will not be as positive as it might otherwise be and you will have no right to complain about the price of feeder cattle this fall.

[15444]

Whiteface:

Quite true about the Tohan bull. I think if you don't have the best of the best for cows, his calves will need to see a grain pail often. John Hill's Tohan calves hadn't seen the grain pail (so he said - which I believe), but alot of his cows are off of Meridian and are heavy milkers. Dark and solid, Tohan's calves are real head turners. And yes, he doesn't have the Remitall name in his pedigree, but there is Remitall (Boomer) back there.

Formula is definiately going to leave his mark in the Hereford world. Sure, he may becoming old news as time passes, but that doesn't change the fact that he is well liked with the commercial guys. I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few commercial guys at the WLB sale this fall.

Just about to start the fall calving routine here in the next week. Pulling bulls and bringing home cows today and tomorrow to be grouped and put on pastures that weren't carrying alot of cows earlier.

About 3 inches here in the last 4 days. Still raining, with a constant drizzle. Pulling bulls in the rain and mud, ugh, not fun.

[15444]

Also, we have 8 cows born pre-1997, and 3 born in 1997. Culled alot of old cows in the past few years so the average age of the herd is about 4-5 years. Same as grassfarmer, I too wouldn't let these cows go to lightly either. 2 of them are my foundation cows, one of which wouldn't leave this place for under $1500. I would need to see at leave 55-65 cents a pound for any of the others to leave.

I would be interested to see how the logistics and financing of a massive cull is being put together on paper by the CCA and others. They are really going to have to think this thing out, if they want everyone to go along peacefully.