Just how big are your cows?

[cowman]

To start with I would like to say that I may mention a few breed names in this little message but I would like to mention that I feel that there is a place for all breeds in our Canadian industry, unlike some of the talk from mainstream breeders in the last few years.

Now that a 1700 pound cull cow is worth about 100 dollars more than a 1250 pound cow, if you can find a hook for her, is the industry going to take a second look at the size of our brood cows in general?
I always find it interesting for folks with those 1700 pound cows to estimate their weight at 1500 until cull time when they brag about the salvage weight. Through her, usually shorter, life span she may produce a larger calf, but her feed bill is all but forgotten when she used to bring home a fat cheque from the Auction barn for her big fat ass.
My partner bought some pretty funtional Hereford heifers before I joined forces with him that were used for embyo implants and crossbred if they didn't catch. Some of these crossbred females have been retained in our commercial herd, sired by 2200 pound bulls from our purebred program.
The crossbreds out produce the purebreds from our program, but the herefords produce the least calf of all three. Hereford cows average 1700 pounds. Our purebred cows average 1200 and 1350 resectively on our two purebred breeds. These hereford cross females average around 1550, but do produce the largest calves.

Nothing too shocking about any of these figures, except maybe the weight of these Hereford cows.

Is the race still going to be on to have the largest number of 2300 pound two year old bulls in the Calgary Bull sale? Are we still going to try to beat into the chefs that they can deal with an 8 oz New York strip spread out over an average plate?
I ordered a steak sandwich the other day that had to be 10 inches long and less than 1/2 inch thick. I don't have to tell you how much enjoyment I got from that thing.
All this talk about giving the consumer what he/she wants in the world of BSE simply brought this to mind while walking through my cows today.

Sure would like to hear your opinion Whiteface. Like I said to begin with, not meant to run down a particular breed, mainly talking about size.

[15444]

Rpkaiser:

The average size of the Hereford cow is definately something that the breed has come to grips with, and I think they are beginning to see the light.

The breed took the wrong turn in the 80's and early 90's when breeders introduced bulls that took the average cow size way beyond 1500 lbs. It has only been in the last 10 years that breeders have focused on how to fit functionality with a 'framey' cow that can handle a big calf. Those bulls which could supply functional and large females during the last 20 years became a big hit with breeders (i.e. Nick the Butler and GK Renegade R271).

The average size of my cows is 1450-1600 (1600 being the really fat cows). I have owned the 1700 variety of Herefords and vow never to own them again. Too much feed for too little calf. In order to justify a cow over 1700 lbs, she would have to bring home a calf which is about 900-1000 lbs (without creep)in the fall. I know some local SimmentalxCharolais breeders that can get their animals to do such things...but then again, those are totally different breeds.

I really like the 1500lb, frame 5.5-6 cow. They always seem to be the little powerhouses that generate the replacements and income for many operations.

[ALICIA]

I have 10 yr old left, Ruger that will run around 1700 and a 6 yr old that I bought from Crittenden Bros that runs I'd say 2100 to 2200, she really is massive and her feet is telling on her, the toes are fine but she walks like she is on egg shells, and still packing the food into her self, she is the one that lost me the twin heifer calfs, but I will not sell her because I got to much money tyed up in her and I will not give a big cow like that away for near nothing, so they can make big money on her as beef. She milks great and with the bulls I use on her they have down sized to a smaller animal, but the genetics are their if I ever want to inlarge down the road.
That is the thing with hereford, you can breed them to fit want ever market happens to be in at that time. THEY ARE THE VERSITIAL BREED. This is way most feed lots didn't like the hereford because they are such easy keepers that they will fatten on a lower cost feed and on the same high cost feed that the exsotics have to be feed they are ready for market soon then the rest and this puts them in a class by themself.
My feelings are that with cattle so cheep if you want to stay in busness your going to have to raise cattle that will grow, fatten, reproduce, and grade at the cheepest cost possible, and I believe that the British breeds are the one that is going to lead. They haven't been around for Centurys for nothing. Plus with the herefords that are left they are the top of the line because most of the bottom end of the breed have long sence be weeded out.

[cowman]

Prefer a cow right around that 1400 lb. mark in the fall. Have had cows that were excellent producers at many different weights.
It is very difficult to keep cow size under control if you use big exotic bulls. Need to keep that "continental" influence within reason.I sometimes think the Gelvieh/or Salers were an ideal continental cross, as far as cow size is concerned. In fact the Salers/hereford cross cows were excellent other than they were wild and snaky! Throw a big performance Char bull on them and you rocked the mart when you brought them to town!

[whiteface]

I so know where you're comeing from Randy. Most of my thoughts on cow size, frame creep, giving the buyers what they want (even if it's not always good for them) contains a massive amount of writing that I don't know for sure I'm awake enough to get into right now. (both kids awake a 4:00 am...what the heck is wrong with them? They're turning into little "cowmans"). Size matters a little, but with anything, you can get too much of a good thing. So many of us ran with the size thing just as hard as we could until we hit the fence and now some are hell bent on turning and running as hard as they can the other way...to the point now of where we have MINATURE HEREFORDS. To me this is a joke unless people get into their heads that they can be a novelty pet, raising them for any practical purpose is ridiculous, no, I don't buy into the notion that city folk should raise a pet calf for thier own beef in their backyard as the MINI guys would try and sell them as. As with a lot of things, moderation, common sense and financial sense should be the motivating factors, not "look how big my calves are and then I sold momma for huge salvage" but forgot to mention he lost his shirt when the feed company forclosed on him.

[grassfarmer]

As Cowman says I'm sure we've all had cows that were excellent producers at a wide variety of sizes. My personal favourite just now among my commercial cows is a red angus cow that weighs 1150-1200lb . She does more things right that any other cow on the place. Milks really heavily and turns in a good calf which pulls her down in condition by weaning time. As soon as the cows are weaned and onto fall grazing she puts flesh back on faster than anybody else and comes through the winter in great condition. In 02 she weaned a 560lb calf at 145 days and in 03 a 630lb calf at 191 days both with about three weeks of creep prior to weaning. I have a 4H kid interested in buying her Luing X steer this year. I'm told she is a traditional red angus and the type the Forbes at Beckton built the breed on.
When I see that a cow this size can do a job like this I'm inclined to think that is the size I should be aiming for in my operation.

[cswilson]

We kind of let nature dictate our cow size-if you are disciplined enough to let the hard doers cull themselves by coming in dry. Our ration is based on a 1200 pound cow-we don't sort off the thins and such in a few years you'll see your cowherd moderate in size as big hardkeepers fall out. Another thing is we quit feeding grain to replacement heifers-they have to breed off the grass getting much sounder more efficient cows. I A.I. hundreds of heifers a year so I see all sorts of management schemes-I see as many heifers hurt by overfeeding as underfeeding. A pretty successful old cowboy once told me if you have a 100 percent pregtest your either feeding too much or your not running enough cows. Our cows will weight 1250-1300 fat off grass-they raise me 1400 weight finished steers so I'm happy with that.

[cowman]

cswilson: I would say that is a pretty efficient system and basically one I adhere to also. Never feed any young stuff I'm going to keep barley. They winter right out with the cows! Might bring in a late calf the first year but they catch up if they are any good and if not down the road they go with not a great loss because I don't have a lot in them!
I am a firm believer in cows paying their own way! I might love them...but not enough to spend money to keep them for pets! I am also a firm believer in being tight with my money when it comes to any business venture. You eke out a few cents here and a few cents there and you end up with a few bucks in your pocket! And really I guess that's what its all about?
You seem to be fairly innovative in your approach to raising cattle and I suspect you like to try different things to see how they work?

[cswilson]

Well just trying to make ends meet I guess-it's very hard not to let cow size creep up-you use more growthy bulls-hfrs get bigger-feed a little more pretty soon you've added a couple hundred pounds to your cowherd. I pretty much select bulls on their ability to make heifers-especially when ai'ing.

[bombay_43]

I always thought it was a man, who said that size doesn't matter!?!

If a cow brings home a calf, that weighs in at roughly half the mothers weight, it's a good cow in my books. We personally prefer to keep them at around the 12 to 1400 pound range.

The economics involved in feeding a larger cow, versus the prices offered for their calves, changes from year to year! For some years, the smaller weight calves were paying so much more per pound, that the final dollar amount didn't change much on 500 or 800 pound calves.

Once again, I don't think anyone is right or wrong. It is what ever works for you.

So... I guess size doesn't matter!!!

[kato]

That's true. We usually figure half the cows weight is a good target. More than half is a candidate for giving us replacement heifers.

We are suspicious of any cow that comes home fat and shiny, no matter what her size. It means she was keeping it all for herself instead of giving it to the calf.

A big cow should have a big enough calf to make her work a bit. If she's not, then she's not worth keeping.

Ours average around the 1400 pounds, unless they've made a big mistake and found themselves on feed with the steers! Then they can put on a couple of hundred more if we want to stuff it to them. In normal times we don't though, we just sell them.

[kato]

Most of this 60% of cow weight or even 50% of cow weight comes from cow calf folk who are looking at the economics of their cow calf operation alone. This is, of course, rational thinking.

How about that 800lb.
(50%) calf coming from a 1600 pound cow, and his potential to be a 1300 pound finished steer with a triple A grade?

[cswilson]

It's allhow you do the numbers anyways-does a Feb. born creep fed calf off a 1500 lbs cow make u more money than a later calf off a smaller cow. I used to weigh all our calves and select on WW-now we wean at 4 months or so -so it's kind of meaningless as we retain ownership on all our calves to finish. RP these two guys might have some galloways for u-Newton@236-3815 or George at 236-5085(these steers are at Highland Feeders)

[cswilson]

It's allhow you do the numbers anyways-does a Feb. born creep fed calf off a 1500 lbs cow make u more money than a later calf off a smaller cow. I used to weigh all our calves and select on WW-now we wean at 4 months or so -so it's kind of meaningless as we retain ownership on all our calves to finish. RP these two guys might have some galloways for u-Newton@236-3815 or George at 236-5085(these steers are at Highland Feeders)

[cowman]

cswilson: It all depends on how you want to do it? At one time I would say you definitely could make a lot more money off that Feb. calf from the big cow! Especially if you were straight cow/calf and had no interest in backgrounding.
It seems that in the last dozen years or so a lot of the guys who specialized in backgrounding have gone? Perhaps that is because they either got too old or went on to better things, or couldn't/wouldn't compete with larger backgrounders?
I also suspect that with the trend in cow/calf to move to late spring calving and the demise of the heavy exotic cattle, that a lot of the profit went out of backgrounding?
For many people that mid winter calving worked very well. Especially the mixed farmer? No way has he got time to be messing around with cows when he's trying to get his crop in? You know how it is....trying to get the wheat in before a three day monsoon hits and a darned heifer picks that time to have some major trouble!
I never was a fan of creep feeding but you get those big exotic calves on a creep in the fall and do they ever rock and roll! When they hit the ring they just shine!