Just how big are your cows?

[cowman]

Nerves: How do you keep the alphalfa in the mix alive or do you have to reseed every so often? If so do you rotate it back to a grain crop? I suspect this method would be the best solution for maintaining maximum production...don't know about maximum profitability?
Another question I have is how do you keep down weed problems, especially Canada thistle and perhaps scentless camomile? The 90 acre rotational pasture I mentioned seemed to be getting quite a few thistles in it even though it was only three years old. This guy was running a straight grass mix so I suppose a shot of Grazeon could fix that up but not if you had any legumes in the mix? He relied on a healthy shot of chemical N every year to keep things cooking!

[nerves]

Cowman the legumes under rotational grazing are very tough we graze them twice a season. First we will hay these pastures for about 4 years I think that helps to kill the thistle. Our thistle problems are along fence lines and tree lines. Some of these pastures have been grazed up to ten years and still look great. I did take a valmar out about seven years ago and put about 5 pounds of alfalfa on and it did help, the pastures still look good today. We feed barley and straw in the winter along with swath grazing. In the spring just before they calve we switch to hay. With weather permiting the cows with calves will finish any pasture that is left to graze. Had very few sick calves last year and cut my mineral bill in half. (just used blue salt loose and selenium and vit A,D,E). Conseption rates were also very good. It seems we are always tweaking something here and there but all in all it works for us.

[cswilson]

WE get some thistle problems in our native pastures(peat moss) we weakened them alot by giving that pasture a years rest(we lost our water supply due to drought). Also grazing too early can cause thistle to get a leg up on grass. Throwing sweet or red clover in your salt can help spread it across pastures. I gueess the difference between a grass farmer and a grain farmer is patience-most farmers seem to just write a bigger cheque at their perceived problem while us tightwad grazers try to figure out a cheaper fix-remember the best way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it back in your pockets.

[cowman]

Seems like you have a system that works for you. I'd be a little leery of just the salt and selenium thing. Over the years I've done a fair bit of feed and soil testing and in my area we are definitely deficient in some of the trace minerals. Copper for sure, in a big way,but also zinc. The copper thing is so bad we even add copper every fourth year to the grain land. I believe copper deficiency has been linked to Purdys theory on BSE? Now I have no idea if your area is deficient in copper or not, but I suspect your local fertilizer dealer sure would know?
I have found blue salt mixed with a complete mineral mix is fairly economical. Buy the mineral mix from Innisfail Minerals. The guy who owns it is a nutritionalist and can custom blend anything you need as he has a mineral plant right there. He is very reasonable and a good guy to deal with.

[nerves]

This copper thing and mineral deal I find interesting. Back years ago we used to calve about 500 cows in January and we had alot of scour problems and such. I remember my brother and I treated 75 head of calves In one day. Stress levels were high so we called our vet to come out and do blood test on the cows to see if there was mineral problems.(Don Church was the vet at that time) The tests were done and came back that the cows were low in copper so we ordered some stuff that came from Australia. Every thing got shots and it made no differnce everything was still getting sick. We talked to the mineral ouffit that was in innisfail at the time not sure if it was the same people that have it now. But have used thier product up untill the drought hit and had to cut costs. We have been feeding barley and straw and they said we should keep using the same mineral that has high amounts of phospherous and calcium in it. The barley has got high amounts of phospherous in it already why should it be in the mineral? They failed to realize I am trying to cut cost and phospherous is expensive. So we switched to selenium and vit A,D,E and we put micro nutrients such as copper into most of our fertilzer blend, not to sure about how well it works but I don"t think I touched a sick calf this spring. I realize that minerals are important but do the cows absorbe it better through the plants or through the rock particles in the bag? Then I would also have wonder how well does the plant absorbe it from the fertilizer? Probabley depends on the type plants maybe. Right now my moto is if it ain"t broke don"t fix it. Your Advice is good cowman but I always think there has to be a better way.

[cswilson]

WellI did the mineral thing all kinds all amounts-so being contrary I just quit feeding any at all-haven't noticed any difference in production at all. The oldtimers never fed any-I think that maybe commercial fertilizers tie up availability of some minerals in the grass. I guess I shouldn't sau don't feed any-we get a vmr package in our screening pellets when feeding straw but don't feed any on grass.

[cswilson]

WellI did the mineral thing all kinds all amounts-so being contrary I just quit feeding any at all-haven't noticed any difference in production at all. The oldtimers never fed any-I think that maybe commercial fertilizers tie up availability of some minerals in the grass. I guess I shouldn't sau don't feed any-we get a vmr package in our screening pellets when feeding straw but don't feed any on grass.

[grassfarmer]

Interesting topic to me as I try to find the "right" way to mineralize in a new country. I've seen chronic copper shortage as all our land in Scotland was that - without supplementing it you would get maybe 60% conception rates in cows (when every other part of their health and mineralisation was excellent)
On that land we had to inject pregnant ewes with copper twice pior to lambing or the lambs would be born with swayback (unable to stand or walk properly) Despite being told my place here is very short of copper and selenium I still think this is a relatively mineral rich soil. Fertility here has been excellent whatever supplement I've given. Since April I have been on Kelp and straight salt. So far had zero pinkeye or footrot troubles which is an improvement on previous years or is it just a different year?)I haven't used a shot of antibiotic since February either (on @260 head of cattle) The jury is out on kelp as it is expensive but I like it so far - i'll wait to see the winter consumption before committing to it again. One thing I thing cswilson has right is that forced or fertilised grass is mineral poor, or is it the "improved" grass species? My cows that grazed a meadow brome mix this year and did really well on it suddenly dropped kelp consumption when they went into a paddock that was really just a slough with some bush around it - a huge diversity of grass/forb species seemed to fulfill their mineral(and salt)needs naturally.

[grassfarmer]

Wow philosophy abounds.
Quoting cswilson
"I guess the difference between a grass farmer and a grain farmer is patience-most farmers seem to just write a bigger cheque at their perceived problem while us tightwad grazers try to figure out a cheaper fix-remember the best way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it back in your pockets."

This thread has realy turned a corner, and I for one am impressed.

We started dealing with this natural way of looking after grass about 15 years ago as well, and find benefits both financially and morally.

We walked into a different management scheme 2 years ago when we partnered up in our current situation. The year before saw a $14000.00 fertizer bill on 4 quarters of grass. We continued our previous policy, which we still maintain on our land at Ponoka, of no chemical inputs, rotational grazing, slightly less stocking rates, and specific application of manure and feeding areas.

One little field comes to mind that our new partner had seeded down to a pasture grass mix when we took over. Looked pretty sad as they had used fertilizer to rob a crop of oats off the land while establishing the grass. Partner had thoughts of fertilizer and even reseeding, but patience reigned. Trimmed the field twice early in the first year for weed control, hit it with a good thick coat of good old green gold, and used it for a nice bit of fall grazing. This spring saw a nice even three foot growth of grass, grazed for one round then mowed and blasted with another round of manure. Rain has definately been helpful, but this feild is now back up to about 15 inches and thick as hair on a dog.
One good old story about a simple fence. Used to cut hay and then graze a field along side of a piece of bush with large old poplar trees. The last swath beside the trees was hardly ever worth cutting. Built a fence and started rotational grazing this field which meant that the trees were never invaded and the field beside them saw animals only twice a year for less than a week; always leaving a bit of grass behind for cover. Within about three years this fencline transformation was complete. Not only were those trees happy, but they must have decided to give us something back. We now see more grass beside those trees than on the rest of the field.
Sorry for the ramble, Just excites me to hear and tell stories of dealing with this industry without the mutinational corporations and their quest for money money money.

We find feed testing very beneficial for balancing our supplement and mineral packages, and have tried a couple of different natural minerals including kelp. Have focused on a mineral built to our specs in Ponoka for the last couple of years and have been happy with the results. Unfertilized pastures treated properly should be giving us proper micronutrients for the summer months, however we continue to offer a mineral mix that contains more salt at this time. The one input that I have decided pays more than it cost is a good mineral mix.
Thanks for all that --- Randy

[cswilson]

One thing our cows do is browse-I wonder what the mineral level is in poplar leaves-even if grass to their knees they will pick the leaves along the fencelines-another thing I think different animals are p[robabvly better at metabolizing the minerals that they do graze or browse.

[cowman]

Fascinating stuff! I suspect every farmer is a bit of a "scientist" at heart!
Grassfarmer: I like your statement about how something seems to work but how you question whether maybe it was just the year or something. How true that feeling is! Been there, done that many times!
Randy: Have to agree with just about everything you said, especially about how this is a nice sideline from all the politics etc. I always like to hear about how someone did something different and how it worked out. At one time the "Cattleman" magazine used to have stories about how different people were trying different things, and I truly enjoyed reading that. Now it tends to be all politics and experts!
And while a lot of you might think I'm an opinionated old SOB, I'm really not when it comes to new ideas about plants, animals etc.! But yea, I am an opinionated old SOB on politics!

[grassfarmer]

Your comments about cattleman magazine are interesting Cowman. It reminds me of the situation in the UK where we used to have 2 farming programs on TV on a Sunday that featured leading farmers - the progressive, successful ones that were leading by example. In the early 90s these programs were stolen by environmentalists and now feature producers that were flooding their land to encourage a rare kind of frog to return, or growing reeds to make wicker baskets for craft fairs. It kind of symbolised to me the writing was on the wall for agriculture there and I think it is a disgrace that a nation that led the world in stock and crop breeding at one time has no room for an agriculture anymore. At least Canada still feels like an agricultural country - despite the problems.