What are the ramifications?

[farmers_son]

I hear what you people are saying but I think it is like this. There is what is good for the industry and there is what is good for an individual farm. If you spin the BSE wheel and deliver a dead head that tests positive and it turns out that you have screwed the industry and your neighbours then you will not be able to wrap yourself in the flag and say you did it for your country. BSE positives more often than not do not display any clinical signs so any animal over 7 years of age potentially could be the next disaster. If they are dead they should be in the bush. If they are sick they should be in the bush. I hear people selling old crocks and complaining they only got 7 cents a pound. Could be that cow should never have been sold in the first place because if they are short of heads she is likely to get tested. If they find another BSE cow it darn sure is not going to come from my place and don’t expect any thanks from me if it comes from your place.

[grassfarmer]

"BSE positives more often than not do not display any clinical signs so any animal over 7 years of age potentially could be the next disaster"
Farmers_son, what evidence of this do you have? Despite Canadian TV only showing footage of the one UK case (the B W on wet slippery concrete)an awful lot of the UK cases actually went down with the disease. Dairy cows suddenly dropping in milk production then going off their feet and showing the shaking head symptoms. I know friends who had several cases and they noticed them because the animals were acting aggresively or noticably different from usual. I don't think for a minute that there are big numbers of BSE cases awaiting in the Canadian herd - as Cakadu says we have got to get heads tested, even if we find one or two or six more cases in Canada in the years ahead it won't alter our BSE risk category with OIE so what possible reason is there for not testing? If you have a cow that shows obvious signs of a nervous disorder then you would have a dilema - to test or to bury?

[farmers_son]

A cow may incubate BSE for 2 to 8 years before it shows clinical signs. During this time it would test positive but otherwise appear healthy.
http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/et011130bovine.html

Also http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/fs/bse/bse21_en.html

"Have the tests detected pre-clinical animals?

All three approved tests have identified pre-clinical animals. These are animals not yet showing clinical symptoms. The CEA/Biorad detected pre-clinical animals in an experiment. The Enfer test has detected several pre-clinical animals, particularly from herds which have been slaughtered because one case of BSE has been detected. The Prionics test has detected pre-clinical animals from herds depopulated because of BSE and also in animals at normal slaughter in Switzerland and now in Germany. The two cases identified in Germany were in normal animals presented for slaughter.

In the case of animals detected at slaughter, we can be confident that no obvious signs of BSE were present but we cannot know how advanced the disease was.

Several cases of BSE have also been identified by the tests in animals presented for emergency slaughter. These are not pre-clinical animals. They showed some disease signs but these signs had not been treated as suspicious for BSE."

[cswilson]

Well in my way of thinking let's get this crap over and done with-if there's another positive lets get it found while the borders are closed anyway. Farmer's_son the last thing I look for is approval from guys like you-I'm sure you'll pony up to the table when trade resumes-no thanks to yourself-like I said if you aren't part of the solution your part of the problem. I think your alot smarter guy than your letting on here-rattling the sabre isn't going to do a lick of good.

[kato]

I still say that the day the U.S. finds one of their own is the day the chickens come home to roost. They are not ready to deal with it.

Requirements to come up from a moderate risk country include an 8 year trade ban, a traceback system, and a testing program. We currently have all of those, or will have next August when our 8 years are up on the feed ban. If the Americans find one now, they will be in trouble for a long while due to the lack of traceback. They know that. That's why they won't find one for a while.

I would think that the Japanese talking to the Americans has more to do with other issues than BSE. We all know how American trade talks go. There's a catch to everything. I would suggest they have other issues they are using as leverage with the Japanese.

As scary as it is, I still think it's the high road for us. To do it the American way is not in our best interests in the long run.

[grassfarmer]

farmers_son, The other part of the BSE testing argument is that we are taking the appropriate precautions as an industry with regard to removal of S.R.Ms from older animals which absolutely ensure consumer protection. The public have accepted that and have continued to buy beef so where is the problem with testing? We have nothing to hide, health authorities and consumers are happy with our handling of the issue and if another sporadic case turned up in Canada tomorrow nothing would change. This is not about BSE it is about political games and trans-national Corporations unfair trading practises.

[grassfarmer]

Well farmers_son, you have laid out what you think is in our heads, as well as the consequences.

We supposedly do not care for our neighbors, wrap ourselves in some flag and on and on.

Now it's time for you to wake the hell up.

If we all do what YOU think is right, the OIE then says either test 3 million (Most all of our Cattle) or loose all exports, and don't think for a moment that would not include our boxed beef to the USA.

If that statement is not sinking in, I guess we need to give up.

Call Peaster an idiot, but don't keep telling well informed cattle producers on this site that they have this all wrong.

You are the one who has this all wrong sir, your theory will only make matters worse.

Let your deads rot in the bush for all I care, but stop with your foolish attempt to cast a naive tone on the heads of people who have studied this issue a lot more than you have.

[farmers_son]

We need to test to the OIE minimum but we don’t need to test our dead cows. The U.S. is not testing their down and deads. Neither is Australia. For that matter Japan does not test their dead either.

As an individual there is little we each can do to help us get through this BSE crisis. But each and every beef producer in this country does have something they can do. It is our individual duty and responsibility to ensure that we do not send in the next BSE positive. Peaster sent in a downer and look what that did. We just start to see the light at the end of the tunnel and some idiot in Washington ships a downer. If our border was about to open it slammed shut right quick after that and doesn’t look to open soon. The responsibility rests on every one of us to make very sure that we do not send in the next positive. Now if that does not fit well with CFIA and their need to have 8000 or how ever many head tested that is their problem. They need to find another way to get their heads to test. Dare I suggest they pursue a policy that supports the price of healthy slaughter cows. If there were more slaughter cows going to market they wouldn’t need to be collecting dead heads. There is no sense at all in testing dead animals.

[blackjack]

... if we don't test are we not letting the americans bs the rest of the world at our expense...by testing will we find out whether or not our herds have BSE according to Prusiner's sound science...as far I am concerned we been letting the politicians and cattle associations in our country off the hook with their narrow minded attitudes on the BSE... it will be up to us producers if we want to find the answers to the bs...

[farmers_son]

Just so we are clear, I am not saying don't test. I am saying don't send in dead heads to test. There is no sense, no food safety benefit, in testing dead cows.

[cowman]

I have a hard time believing anyone would think a "coverup" is a good idea. If we have the bloody disease then lets find out just how bad it is? Isn't that the reason for the testing? It's called food safety?
I wonder where you get the idea people would be down on the neighbor because he has the next positive? Would we be down on him if he got AIDS from a blood transfusion? Not his fault? How do you know you don't have that positive in your herd right now? Letting the coyotes eat her doesn't alter the fact that she might have had BSE!
The general presumption is that America is fudging the testing, but is that true? I don't know. The American consumer seems to have confidence in the USDA? Making statements that all Canadian cattle producers should haul their old cows out to the bush, doesn't exactly inspire confidence in our product or confidence in our producers integrity? Just because we have an idiot in Edmonton saying we should shoot, shovel and shutup, doesn't mean we have to take it to heart? That statement by Ralph was one of the dumbest things he's ever done?

[farmers_son]

Cowman: Shipping downers and sending in heads of dead animals so they can be tested for BSE is not normal practice for beef producers. It is like sharing intravenous needles and engaging in unprotected sex. It is irresponsible and reckless. Many cases of AIDS are preventable and likewise potential BSE positives can be prevented if producers avoid high risk behaviours involving sending down and dead cows.

It was dumb of Ralph to publicly say shoot shovel and shut up. It did not need to be said. In all honesty, given what we know now, given that the border looks like it will still be closed in the beginning of 2005, given all the pain and suffering, wouldn’t it have better if the test from Peaster’s cow had quietly gone into the garbage can and got lost or else was reevaluated as negative like our American friends do? Certainly it should have never been sent to Britain but handled internally within our own country. After all it was rendered anyway, no one would have been hurt. Or how about this, wouldn’t it have been a better if Peaster had just hauled his cow to the bush? We don’t need to keep on making the same mistakes over and over again. It is time we learned from our mistakes and moved on.

Certainly we do not want our politicians telling us producers to haul our dead and down cows to the bush instead of test them. It is something we producers should know without being told.

Bottom line the purpose of producers discussing issues such as this is we are all searching for solutions for the BSE crisis, most of which involve getting the border open. I am certain, no matter what the OIE or CFIA or whoever says, that if we find one more Canadian positive the border will not open for a very long time. We need the next BSE positive, and there will be another, to be an American cow. That said it then falls to Canadian producers to do what they can to make sure they don’t send in the next BSE positive that will drive the final nail in the coffin of the Canadian beef industry. Maybe Ralph’s 3S speech was one of the dumbest things he ever did but if a producer sends in a dead head or downer cow and it is tested positive it will be one the dumbest things that producer ever did. Take your sick, dying, down and dead cows to the bush.

[cswilson]

Farmer's_son-how can you be sure the U.S. hasn't tested any downers that's just finger pointing in my opinion-what will happen with triple S is we will just get the feds involved far more than we want-with RFID tags etc they can make us account for all our inventory. Do you want to be 'forced' into producing the head of every cow you lose. I'm sure you've applied for some BSE compensation-if you don't agree with the government on testing-send your money back. When Bangs was bad-a far more infectious disease- we all had to test our cowherds(at the end of a lariet in lots of cases) a few times. We had close neighbors that had their cowherds wiped out-did we shun them- not hardly.You say it's not normal practice to test for BSE-well duh-nothing has been normal since 5/20.WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!

[cakadu]

Wouldn't it be better to know that it didn't have something i.e. BSE than to wonder? What happens if someone sees you haul that dead out and reports it?

I agree that at one time or another we have all had a dead animal tested and all the vets could do is come back and tell you what they didn't have, which is better than just ignoring it.

Hindsight is always a wonderful thing and I'm sure if things could be changed, they would never have done what they did. Knowing what we do now, it is tempting to not test, but it seems to me that being open and forthright is the best way to be.

[cswilson]

Well Shouda Couda Wouda always does work. No doubt Peaster shouldn't of sold that cow but he did and were left to get out of the ensuing mess. Not testing sure isn't going to do it-if we really want to slow slaughter rate down we'll just miss meeting our quota and have to test many more cattle.