Unfair?

[cowman]

On the Rutherford show the other day there seemed to be a lot of people ripping the idea of more money for the beef producer. One guy asked the question "How is it fair that the ag businesses are being bailed out, when no other small business man is?" Is this a valid question? Of course one bright light suggested cattle producers are idiots for breeding their cows this year...should have left them open!
Rutherford basically stated here was the problem...Do we want to keep this industry? Is there value in it for the Canadian taxpayer? And if there isn't why should they keep bailing it out?
Let's face it. The Canadian consumer could probably get a better deal if beef and most other food products were imported, so why keep supporting an industry that can't seem to pay it's own way? Get rid of the farmers and let them become productive members of society!
In reality maybe we are no better than Bombardier?

[CattleAnnie]

Or Air Canada? How many times has the Feds bailed them out?

Take care.

[les]

What about us feed grain growers? We would like some money too.

[kato]

When you talk to people from the city, you find that they are far removed from their source of food. They have no idea of how the cutthroat world of international food trade works. They have no idea how precarious trade can be. Let's see...for example... the U.S. wants our water, cheap. We say "No". They say, "Do you want to eat today?". We say, "Take what you want, we are hungry". It's as simple as that.

The most important fundamental part of a nation's security is food supply. Give up your ability to feed yourself and you are at the mercy of whoever wants to control you. And don't think you won't be controlled, because you will.

That's a major part of why they support their agriculture in Europe. After the horrors of WW II, they know what it is to be hungry, and have decided not to be put in that position again.

It's a lesson we should all learn.

[kato]

We would not have had to ask for money if the government would have had the balls to stand up to the illegal border closure.

I don't like the idea of welfare, but it was the easy way out for a chickenshit bunch of politicians who chose to deal with the issue this way.

I've told a few government folks to stick cheques up their ying yang in the past, and look forward to the next day I am able to do it again.

For now, survival.

[Horse]

I have been in this buis 45 yr and if anything I would not say it has been fair. There is the cheap leases the family afairs the crocked politions the gov programs and so on But if we produced a product we could usualy turn it into cash of some kind .
We lost the creamerys the elevators the crow the rail the slaughter plants the auction barns are fast going and all to larger holdings so someone could get the other guys share and greed.
Should we breed those cows no , why not get a comitment from the packers or gov or consumers telling what they are prepared to pay for this calf and if we like the price we put the bulls out and if not we sell the cow or leave her empty. Why should we expect the tax payer to keep us in business just because we like to raise calves.
I can sure see the other side of the problem. Its a damm thin board that only has 1 side.
Just read where a farmer in picture bute raised 140 bu bly/acre how does this help anyone but the companys supplying imputs.
I think if I could generate enough income to be considered a tax payer I would be mad as hell to.

[cakadu]

Kato, your point about not being held hostage by having to import our food is a valid one. We could and should be able to sustain ourselves from a food perspective.

Yes, the Europeans knew what it was like to go hungry, but many in this country did too. The fact that they are overproducing now is too far removed from the war as it was over 60 years ago. True, one should never forget, but remember that the subsidies being paid in other countries are part of the reason why grain producers in this country don't get paid enough.

Time and again I have heard from folks who wonder why 97% of the country should be interested in keeping less than 3% going. A safe, steady, quality food supply is the reason why. (I did not say cheap for a reason!!!)

[ivbinconned]

cakado; untill there are no lavish subsidies paid to farmers in the one Canadian province, Quebec, we should never talk or complain about what other countries do in that regard!!

Don't throw stones when we live in a glass house.

[cowman]

Les: I've got to agree with you. Barley prices do not look very good right now and this weather is rapidly turning what looked like an excellent crop into a disaster. Were not there yet but we need some darned warm, windy weather pretty soon!
I'm not right up on the prices but my neighbor tells me the futures are not very good. Now that might change if we don't get this crop in the bin! It seems the only time we get a decent price is when we don't have any grain to sell?
I still hope we will get an Indian summer and we'll get this crop off in fair shape. Never got any snow here and the barley(Stannard and Dolly) is still standing up very well...but needs to be swathed and combined fairly soon!

[farmers_son]

Cowman: Your question regarding why should the taxpayer continue to bail out the beef producer is of basic importance to all of agriculture.

It goes beyond just having food. Other countries could supply our nations food need, whether we are talking beef, grains, vegetables, sugar, it is available elsewhere. However we would be vulnerable in time of war and more, we would have difficulty taking any kind of independent position in foreign affairs if Canada were totally dependent on external sources for food or any other essential commodity.

I think even more than that agriculture is the fabric of the nation. Take away agriculture and all that is left is cities and roads, a series of dots on a map connected by thin highways. Anyone who has ever flown over Canada has only to look out the window and see the fields and forests that really make up this land. Agriculture pays the taxes that builds the local roads and provides the economic engine for a rural Canada which is an essential part of the nation. Our nation is more than cities and highways.

Canada is blessed with abundant primary resources, minerals, forests, fisheries and productive agricultural land. If the arbitrary actions of competing foreign governments such as the United States of American can be allowed to cause the collapse of essential primary industries, such as Canadian beef production, the very foundation of Canada is threatened. The government of Canada plays a role in the defense of our country against attacks from foreign powers so we as a people can continue to enjoy the freedoms, privileges and prosperity we take for granted. The unjustified closure of our mutual border to a perishable live commodity by the United States of America does amount to an attack on our nation’s economy and it is the duty of the nation and its taxpayers to stand up to the injustice that is being committed upon defenseless beef producers who have done nothing wrong.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, this unpredictable climate is another reason I feel much of Alberta anyway is better suited to grass versus grain. You like to say how much grain the land can grow - you should add IF you get enough frost free days, a dry harvest season, not too many crop diseases. That's why the creator covered the prairies with grass - best thing for it ;o)

[cakadu]

I'm kind of curious to know what subsidies are paid in Quebec? Other than the fact that Quebec has the lion's share of the supply managed industries and the fact that they have the UPA, which is an entity unto itself, what else is there?

It is amazing how powerful and well resourced the UPA is. They have their own "war chest" that they can use when they want to get things accomplished.

I do believe that there are non-ag related monies paid in Quebec, but have to admit that I am not too well versed on what else there might be. I had the opportunity about 3 years ago to study the ag system in Quebec and learned a lot from it.

In many respects, I wish that the rest of the country could work together to get things done. Until we can come together with common goals, we will meet limited success.

[blackjack]

cakadu... there is definitely a subsidy being paid by someone out of Quebec... our yearlings we sold in July all went to Quebec to be finished... not sure though how much a head subsidy ...no one would say other than don't know...

[ivbinconned]

Hope you don't mind but I will copy and paste a couple of posts that I made on this topic one year ago.


posted Sep 6, 2003 11:04

From 1991 to 1999, there was a 78%reduction in direct federal expenditures in support of the agri-food sector in Sask. and a 69% reduction for Alberta. In the same time period there was only a 27% reduction in Quebec. I am NOT bad mouthing the Quebec farmer but I do "bad mouth" a system that bleeds money from Alberta to "lavishly" support farms in another province. If Alberta farmers don't mind this at least you would think they would rise up and insist that the money goes to there neighboring province where there grandpa and uncles farm.
Now that, is just the federal expenditures! What about the "lavish" support of Alberta dollars the Quebec farmer gets through their provincial government via federal transfers...hush-hush...were not supposed to know. While I have seen my Saskatchewan assets drop in value 50% in the last 10 to 15 years, in Quebec the high level of Quebec government support is a major reason why average net worth of grain and oil seed producers increased 51.3% compared to 12.7 per cent in Ontario from 93 to 97; during the same period, average assets in Quebec increased by 53.5 per cent compared to 15.8% in Ontario.
When total crop receipts for Quebec were just $1.3 billion as compared to Ontario’s $3.1 billion the Quebec Ag ministry spent $527 million while Ontario's spent just $372 million! Neat what you can do as a "have not" province while Alberta sleeps.
I have said it before in these threads, what does a pick pocket do? He makes you look the other way! So we are told to look and blame the U.S. and Europe, while with in our own country the 21 year old Quebec ASRA programs (indirectly funded with ALBERTA money) heaps impressive benefits on, for example, in Quebec a 780 acre corn grower over a 9 year period ending in 99 amounted to $580,000, or an average of $64,445 per year with a 99 provision of $99,480! Not bad eh!
This program now includes all ag production and guess what, it is acreage based, cost of production based, and also has an interesting aspect to it in that the benefits are based on 90% of a skilled workers wages in Quebec, ie. Nurse, teacher, government employees, etc.
Could this be why the average age of farmers in Quebec is much lower than say Saskatchewan.
Could it be that a net payout in 1999 of $120.00 per acre of barley to a Quebec farmer is why he could afford to send us that load of hay that the Canadian Alliance got so excited about and we where all supposed to feel so warm and fuzzy about. Give me a break!

[ivbinconned]

So today not only do the feds cost share in that provinces programs which are far more costly than Ontario's even though Quebec has 25,000 less farmers. They also hand Alberta cash directly to the Quebec government which flows through to there farm’s!
The result today is this. Net payout's per acre in Quebec for the years 98, 99, 2000 for corn were...$117.03; 122.27; 149.23!
For Soy...same years...$28.09; $48.24; $80.80!
For Wheat...$92.81; $81.70; $100.49!!
Average New Investment per farm in Quebec as compared to Ontario (sorry I don’t have figures for Alberta) for the years 93, 95, 97 are as follows; Quebec $28,323; $43,259; $45804.
Ontario $18,053; $25,207; $30,334
Average New Investment on grain and oilseed farms 50% higher in Quebec than Ontario in 97 speaks volumes about producer perceptions of future profitability.