Unfair?

[cakadu]

There is no yes or no to belonging to the UPA - if you farm in Quebec, you belong. The fees for belonging are hefty and my Quebecois friends are sometimes reluctant to pay them, but pay them they must. Seems to me they pay something like $1500/year as a start and there are some 400,000 plus members in the UPA.

If the UPA doles out money, it is likely that some of the monies that they give out are in fact the collected fees.

From what I remember the UPA works fairly well for the majority of producers. People like greenhouse growers have great markets 5 hours away from them - markets like Boston, New York etc.

I have never seen the sense in anyone separating - especially when you look at the big picture. Alberta is land locked - what about shipping by sea - we're a little ways away from any sea ports and major shipping lanes. When you think of it from a big picture standpoint, it would be a huge undertaking to be on our own, to say the least.

[ivbinconned]

cakado: Surely you jest!

Western Canada is not landlocked...to the west or the east.And if having your own ports and oil is all it takes to achieve a high level of economy then Venezuala would be a world power house!

"Huge undertaking" isn't Alberta loosing 8 billion a year to Ottawa a huge loss! What could you "undertake" if that did not happen. Possibly we would have a few %100 western Canadaian owned packing plants...LIKE ONTARIO HAS!
Perhaps a western canadian buck would not have been so low these past 30 years that has made foreign ownership a reality. Yes we have really been protected being part of Canada...now I jest.

[cakadu]

It is not just a matter of money, in fact far from it. We would need the infrastructure, leadership, poilicies and the list would go on and on.

We've had discussions in past threads on separating and I do understand your arguments for separating. Agreeing with them is an entirely different matter. What guarantee would we have that a Western powerbase and leadership would spend the dollars any better than what is happening in Ottawa? Having money is no guarantee that the general populace will see things getting done that they want to see. Witness the money that Alberta does have to spend and the way leadership sometimes deals with it. Not exactly what is best for the masses.

[cowman]

The idea of taking back our "rights" would be the first step in becoming a nation. Just like Quebec is doing? I do believe Quebec has the right idea...decentralization? Why do we need a federal government that always favors the heavily populated central areas?
The fact is this country can never really work. The heartland treats the rest of us like a bunch of colonies...because they can!
On another note: farmers son: One of the reasons you gave for why we need agriculture in Canada was that farmers paid for the rural roads? In fact this is not entirely correct...at least not in Red Deer county! Residences and farmland only make up 31% of the taxes. I believe farmland itself pays only 17% but of course farmers are residents too so I guess they pay a portion of the residential taxes. The rest of the taxes come from businesses and industry...read that as oil and gas! In other words it is actually oil and gas that build the majority of the roads and maintain them. Every lease in the county pays a tax in that $2000 range and the county is basically wall to wall leases! Every pipeline, every compressor station!
When the rig moves in they pay a fee. When they move out they pay a fee. If they beat the road up they pay to fix it...unlike the silage trucks!
The point of all this is that I believe every farmer in Alberta should understand just how much money the oil and gas sector puts into Alberta. You may curse them but in fact they are paying the bills?

[farmers_son]

I know in certain parts of the province the oil and gas industry opened up land building roads as you suggest. The roads around here were all built long before the oil industry arrived and were paid for by the farmland taxes plus whatever government money was available. So it works both ways. The oil industry is paying more taxes in our area now which is helping, otherwise there would have to be tax increases. Certainly the oil industries cost of developing a well is less in our area than it would be in a non populated area because of the infrastructure that was in place when they arrived.

At least around here, agriculture was here before the oil industry and it will be here after the oil industry moves on.

I would say the oil and gas which Alberta is blessed to have under its soil is paying a lot of bills right now. The oil and gas industry is exploiting that resource to their benefit. We haven’t heard the term non renewable energy since the Lougheed years. Oil and gas is non renewable, they do not reforest like the lumber industry or plant like agriculture. Not a sustainable base to build a nation upon even looking ahead as little as a 100 years.

Yes oil and gas is providing jobs right now and Alberta is indeed fortunate compared to Saskatchewan to have our energy resources but lets not forget that the province and the national government has invested money in the oil and gas sector too in years past. The taxpayers investment in the beef business is also a sound investment and will pay off in jobs, a stronger and diversified economy that is sustainable for the long term.

The money beef producers are receiving to keep our industry alive during this crisis will all be paid back in the form of direct taxes plus spinoff jobs and increased GDP.

[ivbinconned]

Cakado: You and unfortunatly the majority have what is called the "battered wife syndrom"! Knowing things are really bad but just can't leave.
Where you see a mountain to climb...I see the promise of a terrific view. No one here is promising you a utopia where there are no corrupt polititions. But the challenges and struggle would not be anything like what our forfathers faced! The rights and freedoms they fought for and enjoyed we have let go.

This is an undisputanle fact...untill they think we might get out...they will not do anything to keep us in.
By supporting your local sepratist now will not mean we leave tommorow but the message will be clear to Ralph and Paul. We are fed up and not going to take it anymore!! Nothing else will will shake them more than a handfull of elected Alberta sepratists!

I am for keeping Canada alltogether on one condition...a Triple E Senate. But the ONLY way we will get it is from a position and resolve to get out. Seperate or surrender, that is your choice.

When you think about this...think about the $3000 a year my kids in Alberta are sending to that $100,000 a year lawyer in Nova Scotia

[cakadu]

The points you raise are valid, farmerson and I think we need to look at more than just the revenues that come from oil and gas. There are definite costs to extracting the oil, not the least of which is that it is non-renewable.

By the time this does become an issue, many of us will have long since departed and I wonder what we are leaving for future generations? Undoubtedly there will be far different forms of energy to power vehicles. There are always costs to what we do and I wonder what the true costs of all this oil and gas extraction will actually be.

[ivbinconned]

"The oil and gas industry is exploiting that resource to their benefit"!!

Using the term "exploit" betrays your bias, sounds like the NDP mentality in my province where we have blocked such development and left it in the ground and exported our kids instead. The oil and gas industry has UTILIZED” that resource, to the great benefit of all Albertans. Those farms and ranches that have had activity on their land have enjoyed a direct benefit and without such would not be viable. Some even use the funds to invest in Saskatchewan….thank God.

But my concern is not only about money and revenues. When I see farmers jailed for trying to sell the fruits of there own labor and men being thrown in jail on trumped up firearms charges as happened the other day in Ontario and after 17years of the West trying to send Ottawa a message like we never have before and getting insulted by the prime minister and the CBC every election, and seeing 75 year old men who have paid taxes, been very productive all their lives and offering to pay for their hip replacements then having to wait months and months to even see a specialist, this makes me mad.

When I see Albertan’s being ignored when electing their own senators, and the WESTERN beef industry slowly but surely over time falling subservient to foreign interests with the feds showing little concern, all the while allowing them to operate in OUR country in a manner that they are NOT allowed to in their own country…we are betrayed!! When Alberta cash goes now to Quebec to help keep their beef industry viable…I am appalled.

President John Kennedy said nothing politically happens by accident…every thing is planned, no matter how it may appear. Could it be that the bring down of the western Canadian beef industry has been a “plan”…judging by the lack luster efforts of our federal government to resolve it …..

There is no valid argument to suggest that Western Canada would not be better off today if under self government. Separating would be the best thing that ever could happen to the socialist governing elite in Ottawa who have only held on to power because they are able to prop up their failed policies by robbing those who can not defend themselves under the present system. They would have to face reality, as we all should.

My friends, “Rising above the prevailing mediocrity requires of the individual that he or she recognize that a good society stems exclusively from the habit of right thinking and doing on the part of its citizens… To rise above mediocrity is nothing less than aligning one’s self with reality, that is, participating right now in an input of thoughtful, responsible citizenship that makes an increasing take-out possible not only for self but for generations to come.”

Now finish your coffee and get to work.

[dolin]

well, we paid 245.00 for the start,plus percentage of the sells.40000 not 400000 farmers

[cakadu]

Thanks for the clarification dolin. There is still money paid in and the UPA does some pretty good things, from what we were shown.

The exploitation for the oil comes in the form of water being taken out of the hydrological cycle forever, environmental and wildlife habitat forever being altered, reclamations not being carried out or more imporantantly - not enforced, scarce water resources not being protected - all those things that money will not be able to fix, no matter how much of the stuff you throw at the problem.

We are fortunate to have the oil, but what happens when it runs out? You and I will not likely be here when it does, but future generations will be - what will we have left for them to inherit? Money isn't everything and I would say other than buying the essentials for life it is not good for much more - nor will it ever be.

If your grandchildren or great-grandchildren have no potable water available from the tap, or can't drive out and see wildlife and birds - at the end of the day, what have we really accomplished?

[cowman]

Linda: What happens when the oil runs out?...I would suggest to you that long before you(or maybe even I) are gone there will be very many alternative sources of energy? The "oil age" is rapidly coming to an end and could be replaced at any time if there was the "will"to do it? Unfortunately in this world, money calls the shots?
On another note... I hear a rumor you are running in Div. 5 for councillor...any truth in that?

[wd40]

Iwould hope that before someone runs as a local politician they would take a trip around and get a reality check.

For one the only reason there isn't wide spread use of alternative fuels and ouils is because the oil companies want to use up what is here.
SEcondly, no one really knows for sure how much world oil there is. It's all conjecture. It may be replenishing it self as fast as we use it.

[bombay_43]

Perhaps a visit to this site, will enlighten those who want to know more about the Quebec Farmers Union.

Dolin, it is my understanding, that it was a voluntary union not too long ago. Is this true? I have read that over 95% voluntarily signed into this union.

http://www.upa.qc.ca/eng/index_flash.asp

[dolin]

if we don t pay ,we don t have 70 per cent return taxes of school and municipality.so we don t have a choice.

[ivbinconned]

%70 return of property tax if we all belong to the same organization! What a blessing that would be in Saskatchawan where we pay the highest property taxes in Canada.
Doesn't sound like divide and conquor to me which is the way we do things in the west.

Another site we can use to find out how things work in Quebec is www.financiereagricole.qc.ca

However you need to be able to read French...can anybody here do that???