Unfair?

[oxbow]

Cowman, "I would suspect R-Calf will be calling this an unfair subsidy and definitely pushing for trade action against Canadian beef?"


Already have, but RCALF is usually irrelevant. THey just have that 1 court ruling or they'd be completely ignored.

[cowman]

BFW: You are right on about the price.That is exactly what it was...$3.25. However the price had no where to go but up, until the subsidized corn came in and then it went down! I believe my cousin finally sold at $2.85 after holding it another 6 months!
Was he being greedy to hold out for more money? That year was a pretty ugly drought if you might remember. Yields were down about 40%...on an average? Supply and demand would dictate a higher price per bushel? Instead Canada lets in the unfairly subsidized corn and destroys any chance to make a profit. That is in fact what happened and it was blatantly unfair to the Canadian grainfarmer? Stold that money right out of his pocket!
Once again you had government picking the winners and the losers and not being fair to one sector. This is not a good thing? It breeds animosity between the various farmers and does not build confidence that our rulers are just and fair?
Another classic example of government favoring one industry over another was the fusarium infested hay and straw coming into Alberta from the eastern prairies. The Alberta government broke their own laws here to "save" the cattle industry...of course in the meantime they put our grain industry in jeoprody! Now maybe we dodged that bullet...or maybe it will come back to haunt us, but the fact is the government actively encouraged people to break their own laws!
This whole idea that we must sacrifice everything for the "cattle business" is a crock? There is one hell of a lot more to agriculture than a bunch of money losing cattle! If they killed off every darned cow in Alberta we all might be a lot better off!

[ivbinconned]

As to the re-named Quebec ASRA program and the comparisons that may be invoked. My contact in eastern Ontario seeds 1500 acres so for some to say oh ya but the farms are small doesn't wash.
The programs have some very unique aspects to them. Three that realy stand out, 1;they are based on cost of production. 2;they are acreage based (more acres more paymnent) 3; and this one I really like, they are based on 90% of a skilled workers salary!! So what ever the teacher or nurse or crown corporation employee is getting would have an impact on the farm subsidy.

All accomplished through the slight of hand, highway robbery, corrupt equalization system. Every Albertan must be made aware of this and take action to bring it to an end.

Cowman lead us out.

[cakadu]

What does ASRA stand for? Here in Alberta it is the Alberta Science and Research, but I doubt that is what you're referring to.

Is it possible to make a fair comparison between soy and barley on a cash crop basis?

[ivbinconned]

A.S.R.A. in Quebec stood for Assurance Stabilization des Revenus Agricoles but it now has a new name??

I think you can do a comparison of corn and barley and in 1999 the program paid out a net amount of $120.00 per acre (Alberta cash)to the Quebec producer.

Today the UPA, that represents all producer sectors, manages and disperses annually $300,000,000 (3 hundred million of Alberta cash) dolled out to them by the Quebec government!
They have in place a 7 year commintment from their provincial government and can therefore borrow against future assured money!

[ivbinconned]

Oh ...ONE MORE THING! These funds are managed a board of producers with just a token representative from their government.

[cakadu]

There is no yes or no to belonging to the UPA - if you farm in Quebec, you belong. The fees for belonging are hefty and my Quebecois friends are sometimes reluctant to pay them, but pay them they must. Seems to me they pay something like $1500/year as a start and there are some 400,000 plus members in the UPA.

If the UPA doles out money, it is likely that some of the monies that they give out are in fact the collected fees.

From what I remember the UPA works fairly well for the majority of producers. People like greenhouse growers have great markets 5 hours away from them - markets like Boston, New York etc.

I have never seen the sense in anyone separating - especially when you look at the big picture. Alberta is land locked - what about shipping by sea - we're a little ways away from any sea ports and major shipping lanes. When you think of it from a big picture standpoint, it would be a huge undertaking to be on our own, to say the least.

[ivbinconned]

cakado: Surely you jest!

Western Canada is not landlocked...to the west or the east.And if having your own ports and oil is all it takes to achieve a high level of economy then Venezuala would be a world power house!

"Huge undertaking" isn't Alberta loosing 8 billion a year to Ottawa a huge loss! What could you "undertake" if that did not happen. Possibly we would have a few %100 western Canadaian owned packing plants...LIKE ONTARIO HAS!
Perhaps a western canadian buck would not have been so low these past 30 years that has made foreign ownership a reality. Yes we have really been protected being part of Canada...now I jest.

[cakadu]

It is not just a matter of money, in fact far from it. We would need the infrastructure, leadership, poilicies and the list would go on and on.

We've had discussions in past threads on separating and I do understand your arguments for separating. Agreeing with them is an entirely different matter. What guarantee would we have that a Western powerbase and leadership would spend the dollars any better than what is happening in Ottawa? Having money is no guarantee that the general populace will see things getting done that they want to see. Witness the money that Alberta does have to spend and the way leadership sometimes deals with it. Not exactly what is best for the masses.

[cowman]

The idea of taking back our "rights" would be the first step in becoming a nation. Just like Quebec is doing? I do believe Quebec has the right idea...decentralization? Why do we need a federal government that always favors the heavily populated central areas?
The fact is this country can never really work. The heartland treats the rest of us like a bunch of colonies...because they can!
On another note: farmers son: One of the reasons you gave for why we need agriculture in Canada was that farmers paid for the rural roads? In fact this is not entirely correct...at least not in Red Deer county! Residences and farmland only make up 31% of the taxes. I believe farmland itself pays only 17% but of course farmers are residents too so I guess they pay a portion of the residential taxes. The rest of the taxes come from businesses and industry...read that as oil and gas! In other words it is actually oil and gas that build the majority of the roads and maintain them. Every lease in the county pays a tax in that $2000 range and the county is basically wall to wall leases! Every pipeline, every compressor station!
When the rig moves in they pay a fee. When they move out they pay a fee. If they beat the road up they pay to fix it...unlike the silage trucks!
The point of all this is that I believe every farmer in Alberta should understand just how much money the oil and gas sector puts into Alberta. You may curse them but in fact they are paying the bills?

[farmers_son]

I know in certain parts of the province the oil and gas industry opened up land building roads as you suggest. The roads around here were all built long before the oil industry arrived and were paid for by the farmland taxes plus whatever government money was available. So it works both ways. The oil industry is paying more taxes in our area now which is helping, otherwise there would have to be tax increases. Certainly the oil industries cost of developing a well is less in our area than it would be in a non populated area because of the infrastructure that was in place when they arrived.

At least around here, agriculture was here before the oil industry and it will be here after the oil industry moves on.

I would say the oil and gas which Alberta is blessed to have under its soil is paying a lot of bills right now. The oil and gas industry is exploiting that resource to their benefit. We haven’t heard the term non renewable energy since the Lougheed years. Oil and gas is non renewable, they do not reforest like the lumber industry or plant like agriculture. Not a sustainable base to build a nation upon even looking ahead as little as a 100 years.

Yes oil and gas is providing jobs right now and Alberta is indeed fortunate compared to Saskatchewan to have our energy resources but lets not forget that the province and the national government has invested money in the oil and gas sector too in years past. The taxpayers investment in the beef business is also a sound investment and will pay off in jobs, a stronger and diversified economy that is sustainable for the long term.

The money beef producers are receiving to keep our industry alive during this crisis will all be paid back in the form of direct taxes plus spinoff jobs and increased GDP.

[ivbinconned]

Cakado: You and unfortunatly the majority have what is called the "battered wife syndrom"! Knowing things are really bad but just can't leave.
Where you see a mountain to climb...I see the promise of a terrific view. No one here is promising you a utopia where there are no corrupt polititions. But the challenges and struggle would not be anything like what our forfathers faced! The rights and freedoms they fought for and enjoyed we have let go.

This is an undisputanle fact...untill they think we might get out...they will not do anything to keep us in.
By supporting your local sepratist now will not mean we leave tommorow but the message will be clear to Ralph and Paul. We are fed up and not going to take it anymore!! Nothing else will will shake them more than a handfull of elected Alberta sepratists!

I am for keeping Canada alltogether on one condition...a Triple E Senate. But the ONLY way we will get it is from a position and resolve to get out. Seperate or surrender, that is your choice.

When you think about this...think about the $3000 a year my kids in Alberta are sending to that $100,000 a year lawyer in Nova Scotia