fatherson... rpkaiser... bfw...

[blackjack]

...since you guys are running for positions on ABP...just thought it would be interesting to read your views on packer owned cattle...what should be done with all the culls and your thoughts on testing for BSE...

[tower]

Packer ownership has obviously become a way for Cargil and Tyson to manipulate the fat cattle market in this country. Whether you want to believe that it is intentional or not, large numbers of fed cattle ready at certain times affect the price. Simply business some may say, but that can also be said for the extreme profits the packers are reaping while the producers of this country struggle to survive. The system is broke, and it needs to be fixed. I do not have the solution at this point, but feel that some sort of limits must be set.

As far as cull cows are concerned, I am confident that the best solution is to kill these cattle, and sell the beef. I fully support a plan to build large producer owned packing facilities, and sell these cattle to markets in Asia.
I sat as a new member of CBEF at their annual meeting in September, and feel quite confident that we can sell all the beef we want in Asia. We may need to implement testing for BSE to crack the Japanese market, and am all for testing for export demand.
The only reason we are not selling more beef to offshore markets at the moment is the lucrative boxed beef market in the USA. Packers are operating at record pace, and have no need to source new markets. Packing capacity is crucial, and even more so for the cow and bull kill.

When it comes to BSE blackjack, I would be considered a radical in most eyes. I do not think that Mark Purdey is some sort of God, but I do believe that he, and many more scientist every day are on the right track. BSE is caused by a chemical imbalance, and is not transmissable through contaminated MBM.
I have read the ABP technical committee report on research related to BSE and find it very disturbing. Our industry has become blinded by the words of few, and is afraid to challenge the real issues.
Why is their no proof through experimentation that contaminated MBM is the cause of transmission? I am sorry, but that is one of the simple questions that I have posed for dozens of people in dozens of letters, and have yet to recieve and explaination.

We need to look for short term solutions to the problems at hand. The solution to the problem of BSE in general will take years. Mark my word, the truth about BSE is not the story line we are following now.

The more I write about this topic, the more I will be labeled a duck, so I might as well stop for now. I would share more, if you would like to contact me personally.

rpkaiser@telusplanet.net

[Joe-2]

rpkaiser,I'm not sure who coined the phrase "BSE Mafia" but it ain't too far off the mark if you ask me!!!
Out of all the lies and misinformation that has been passed out through all of this BSE BS the one person I would most like to have a "one on one" with is Dr.Prusiner!!!! To hell with the r-calf leadership and their pissant followers!!!
I too,hear stories,from sources that I have no reason to doubt, about things that went on during Britain's BSE fiasco!!!
e-mail coyote5@mts.net

[farmers_son]

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not running for a position on ABP. I see in the annual report that rpkaiser is and I wish him well.

But I do attend the fall meetings in several zones and I keep interested in our industry organization as I feel it is important. My commenting about the ABP is to hopefully convince other producers the ABP is important to their individual operations and that they will take the time and effort to actually attend a fall meeting in their area this year.

But since you asked...

There should be no packer owned cattle just producer owned packing plants.

The problem with culls is a direct result of a lack of packing capacity not a lack of markets so the answer is increase packing capacity.

Lets talk about food safety rather than just BSE. The reality is people can get sick and die from eating our product, whether from E. Coli or quite possibly Johnes Disease to name a couple. Far bigger problems than BSE and its associated media hype. We cannot expect Dr. Atkins' diet to carry our industry through food scare after food scare. We need to be able to offer a higher degree of food safety to our customers.

[blackjack]

...thanks for the reply rpkaiser... I go to the auction marts quite often and hear other ranchers with the same concerns... I think the ABP SERIOUSLY needs to have government change some rules of the game should we say on packer owned cattle...cull cows I agree with you... as for BSE a lot of ranchers also wonder about the science in that it is not seem to be logical... good luck rp kaiser...

[blackjack]

...oops sorry fatherson... those are the sentiments I hear and share as well...

[crossfield_beef]

fathers_son or is it rsomer?
correct me if Im wrong, but you say you are not running for the APB. Is that because you were elected last year and your term is not up?

By the way, you mentioned in an earlier thread that you were running for municipal office. The elections are over. How did you make out with that?

[cakadu]

I'm just going to put this thought out there - with no packer representation on the ABP, would it be short-sighted in terms of the producer owned packing plants, or some of the other plants that are trying to start up? The sentiments I am hearing are against the big players, but what about the smaller ones?

Change is hard for anyone - some to a lesser degree than others. What may have worked 25 or 50 years ago may not be as applicable in today's world. How possible is it that the ABP could expand it's representation without hurting the core of it's business - namely the beef producer?

I am just trying to get a better picture and understanding of what is happening and why some of the sentiments are running so high. I believe that in order to move anything forward, there has to be common goals and a united voice. How possible is that in the beef industry?

Maybe the upcoming elections will be a step in that direction.

[BFW]

Blackjack, Idon't think that packer owned cattle are the real source of our problems right now. There is a lack of slaughter capacity in our system right now no matter who owns them. Limiting or even banning packer owned cattle may have repercussions that we are not prepared to accept. Would we lose the ability to forward contract cattle (avaluable risk management tool) or the ability to market into some type of grid pricing arrangement? There are alot of custom feedlots who would be unhappy with the loss of a good customer and many feeder cattle sellers who on yearling cattle in particular)have been quite happy that the packers are bidding on their feeders. Until some of these questions are dealt with I could not support a ban on packer ownership of cattle.

As for cull animals I think that they should be removed from the system, tested for BSE, and either enter the food chain or destroyed and the producer compensated appropriately. At least try and simulate a somewhat normal cull situation so that they do not become an even bigger burden to the system the longer this situation carries on. As for BSE testing, again test the older cull animals to determine prevalence and if the market place demands it. BSE testing for younger animals does not appear to be required and it seems attitudes around the world are changing in regards to the need for testing young animals.

[BFW]

Blackjack, Idon't think that packer owned cattle are the real source of our problems right now. There is a lack of slaughter capacity in our system right now no matter who owns them. Limiting or even banning packer owned cattle may have repercussions that we are not prepared to accept. Would we lose the ability to forward contract cattle (avaluable risk management tool) or the ability to market into some type of grid pricing arrangement? There are alot of custom feedlots who would be unhappy with the loss of a good customer and many feeder cattle sellers who on yearling cattle in particular)have been quite happy that the packers are bidding on their feeders. Until some of these questions are dealt with I could not support a ban on packer ownership of cattle.

As for cull animals I think that they should be removed from the system, tested for BSE, and either enter the food chain or destroyed and the producer compensated appropriately. At least try and simulate a somewhat normal cull situation so that they do not become an even bigger burden to the system the longer this situation carries on. As for BSE testing, again test the older cull animals to determine prevalence and if the market place demands it. BSE testing for younger animals does not appear to be required and it seems attitudes around the world are changing in regards to the need for testing young animals.

[BFW]

Cakadu I also think that it is very short sighted to try and exclude the packing industry from the organization especially under the current environment of trying to establish producer owned plants. The industry council plans include representation I believe from some of the smaller members of the packing industry. I also think it is wrong to assume that the 2 large packers will dominate industry council and fill the 2 board seats potentially allotted to it.

[farmers_son]

crossfield_beef: or maybe I am rpkaiser or cowman or GLTUSA. Lets see there is rusty1, pandiana, ivbinconned. Maybe I am one or all. And then again maybe not. Could be emrald1 is really BFW or 15444 is incognito. And it could be that there are aliens walking amongst us and the world is about to end. But probably not.

Some make it a point to identify themselves for whatever reason, I choose not to. I think the real benefit of Agri-ville is anyone can participate and the worth of their opinions is determined by what they say not who they are. You could be reading posts by the chair of ABP, ranchers, men, women, big producers, small producers, executives of the big packers, city dwellers and Americans but what they say is what counts, not who they are.

I have no interest in who you are crossfield_beef but I welcome your participation. And if I say I am not running for the ABP it is because I am not running for the ABP.

[farmers_son]

It is true that packer ownership is not the main problem at the moment, but may I consider the big picture.

Canada has more fat cattle than the packers have room to kil. Thus price is affected. This is simply an issue of numbers. Large numbers of packer owned cattle coming to market at a similar time have this same supply and demand effect. This is also simply an issue of numbers. Like I said before, whether you want to believe that this affect on pricing is accidental, just business, or price fixing, no one can deny that it does not happen.

Certainly there would be problems associated with limiting, or eliminated packer ownership, however acting like there is nothing wrong is even a bigger problem in my mind.

Don't worry folks, packer ownership will never go away. Cargil and Tyson have so many company names, and numbered associate companies that we will always be able to depend on their
"good paying" pens of custom feeders.

Is there a cattle feeder out there who can truely say that they are making good profit from the custom fed cattle owned by Cargil, or is it simply a good cash flow situation for the banker to see those cheques coming in every month.
The feeders I have spoken with say that the margins are so tight on "Cargil custom fed" that they make very little profit.

With the changes in Producer ownership of packing plants coming on Cakadu, the packer ownership question must be delt with carefully, but it must be delt with.

[kpb]

The issue of creating larger domestic packing plant capacity is an absolute red herring. The fact is that our domestic packers were not able to compete with the large multi-nationals years ago and the competitive situation is worse today. The multi's are better established and will not give up their market share. They have no fear of domestic competition or, indeed, of our federal government. The reason our new packing plants are having so much trouble raising money is because no knowledgeable big investors think they can succeed on a long-term basis. The business plan of a domestic packing industry failed before and the conditions are worse now. I think it is naive to think it can succeed now anymore than 5 and 10 cent stores can compete against Wal-Mart.

[cakadu]

The big picture is what is important, rpk. The issue of packers owning cattle is one that must be looked at carefully because you don't want the producer owned plants to run into problems because of cattle ownership. By-laws, organizational rules etc. will have to ensure that the wording allows for such eventualities.

As far as trying to run with the big packers I think that the only way for them to make it is to stay under the radar of the big plants. They won't make it if they go head-to-head with them, so the best way to ensure success is to stay under their radar screens. You wouldn't start up an independent store thinking that you would take over Wal-Mart's share. Besides, wouldn't you want to create your own brand and your own identity? That is what will help to make it rather than break it.