restructure our industry

[cswilson]

WellIdo know a guy with 450,000 broilers who got into cows because the chicken business is heading south-I do know a big dairyman who won't buy any more quota because he knows it is on the way out. Living off equity isn't way to run a business but all businesses do it at times to get through tough times. Heck why not get the government to start huge beef collectives and we can all work for union wages-ohh they tried that in RUSSIA!!!!!!

[kpb]

I wondered how long it would take for the old commie card to be played. Typically when someone's arguments are weak they'll resort to name-calling or stereotyping. From your train of thought I gather that you think anyone who is involved in dairy or poultry in Canada is a communist?
I'd like to try to discuss this on the merits of the argument, not resort to name calling. On your suggestion I re-read Charlie Gracey's article. Some of it--relating to the acceptance of supplementary quotas allowed by Canada--I agree with. We should never let this excess beef in, as Charlie states. On an ongoing basis he does not address our almost complete reliance on one foreign market, which is really the crux of the whole argument. As long as we have such an extreme reliance, we are vulnerable. It is also interesting to note that Charlie himself says that if the border does not open by the end of 2005 he has given bad advice. I don't think you're going to see it open by the end of next year.
I would ask you to give me the courtesy of reviewing Stan Harder's article in the last issue of the Alberta Express. Stan has a pretty insightful view of our industry and presents some very interesting points. I would like to see your comments after you read it.
Finally, I built my ranch up from the very beginning, I inherited nothing--no land, no machines, no cows and built it to, at one time, a 440 cow herd. I don't need a lesson in capitalism or free enterprise. If we actually enjoyed free enterprise in our business instead of being controlled by huge corporate or national interests, we wouldn't be having a discussion about how to help our industry. You can't have free enterprise if only one part of the economic chain wants it--in that case we are simply played for suckers.

[cswilson]

Ohhh I just saw how the buying and selling of quota has pretty much eliminated young people from entering supply managed business. If you don't like the Russian analogy so be it-if it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk it's probably a skunk. Read Charlie Gracey's artivcle it gives a pretty clear view of how supply mahagement would play out.

[jensend]

kpb - i agree with you that the industry is dominated by the foreign-owned packers and they essentially are trying to take a return off our investment; nice if you cna do it. where your argument for supply management seems weak to me is that by reducing the size of the cowherd you are shrinking your economy and that is a hard thing to reverse because infrastructure disappears over time. as well, our supply managed sectors would like to export and grow their industries because they see the benefits to the economies of scale.

[kpb]

I don't have much to discuss with cswilson since he has never addressed any of the specific issues we're facing. I did re-read Gracey, as I said in the previous post, and agree with some of what he said.
jensend, I totally agree with you, infrastructure would be overbuilt if the herd were to shrink. But consider, if we do nothing and the border does not open, our herd will have to shrink anyways over time as ranchers go under and then we'll be doing it in a disorganized way.
Yes, our ranching economy will likely continue to shrink, but when you refer to infrastructure I assume you also mean the packing industry will shrink which I think will be a good thing if producers are able to own the packing industry that is left. I believe this is possible in the scenario I have proposed since the multi's won't want to stay to service the domestic market only. I'm afraid I think it is inevitable that the ranching infrastructure continue to shrink but I would like to see what is left as a viable industry.
jensend, I would like you to expand on what you said about the supply side enterprises in Canada--are they wanting to export because they feel it would enhance their profitability or because they want to be able to have more people in their industry? In my area the richest farmers are the dairy men so it's hard to see why they would want to change the quota system.

[kpb]

Intersting how left wing/ right wing politics come into play when discussing supply management. Some may argue that the system we have is true free enterprise while I see two large packers setting a price on beef these days with no reason whatsoever. If they are oversupplied, the they should be offering 10 cents a pound, or less; they have that opportunity - not-. Why is it that fat prices are 80 cents a pound. My point is price control at the top end is already happening. One price offerered by basically two companies with the same idea. If these two companies were to join forces beyond the establishment of price, I wonder what idiological category they would be put under then. Communistic control of an industry within a democratically governed country.

This Liberal/Conservative - Republican/ Democrat - Communist/ Capitalist thing is becoming a little passe' isn't it. I think we have to all start thinking beyond the labels to the reality of survival for the good of everyone. If that is too left wing for anyone, I guess that's life.

I think jensend brings up a very good point about the reprcussions of downsizing the cattle industry. What about the infustructure within the industry, and more importantly, what about the affects this would have on our grain farming "comrades"?

[cswilson]

Well glad you feel that way-I guess I just deal with actual producers including immmediate famuily in supply managed businesses-the winners in that deal would be the larger ranchers now-they'd end up with the quota to sell but i do believe you'd see the cattle business towards wherever the government feels it will get them the most votes.

[cswilson]

Well glad you feel that way-I guess I just deal with actual producers including immmediate famuily in supply managed businesses-the winners in that deal would be the larger ranchers now-they'd end up with the quota to sell but i do believe you'd see the cattle business towards wherever the government feels it will get them the most votes.

[ValueChainFX]

I would suggest that you read the first few words in the first post and that should be your starting point! To refresh your memory they were; “I believe it is time for cattlemen and women in this country to question why “????

From that point there are many issues you are all going to bring up and see, but really the bottom line is your leaders are not meeting your needs today and at some point there will have to be a start!

For your interest check and see how much red meat we import into Canada! Also ask yourself what would happen if we had the ability to kill in a province and ship across Canada (never mind outside Canada).

I believe it was in 1998 the CCA met in Banff and talked about the restructure process at that time and agreed it was needed. The result was a document called “Re-engineering the beef industry”. That document is probably sitting on a shelf gathering dust. There are some of us that are doing what we can to change the industry in a positive way, and don’t talk much in public anymore because we have the arm chair critics doing what they do best and not much else. Since 1998 there has been several positive changes that would allow the producer to make the changes needed to establish a foundation to build the infrastructure from. However, this takes a group of people willing to work out YOUR best interests.

The opportunities to make positive changes are there at the moment, but there are also plenty of vultures circling the anticipated dead carcass! I think we all need to discover which side of the fence we are on and do something to make the changes, you all know the government and your present leaders are not doing what you want them to.

I anticipate the same old critics posting the “YA BUTTS” so I will smile and nod! But I will still continue to make the changes I can, if you want to share your positive input or send a negative shot feel free to drop me a line at valuechainfx@hotmail.com.

I still enjoy this forum and all your comments!

[bombay_43]

Interesting discussion!

The idea that the German government had with regards to no longer pursuing global trade in Agriculture products, would never work here, and I doubt that it would work in Germany either. However, correct me if I am wrong, but Germany is a member of the European Economics Community. Does this not ensure that agriculture in Germany remains viable?

Every country in the world produces Ag products specific to their regions. I can’t imagine where Canada would grow enough citric products, oranges, limes, g****fruit, etc. to supply our own country. Nor can I see enough walnuts, pecans, hazelnuts, sesame seeds, or rice being grown within our country to supply the demand. My list goes on and on. Therefore, we trade.

Agricultural Global trade, implies the trading of goods that our own country cannot provide, in exchange for Ag products that we have an abundance of. In the case of our beef, it is, as already stated, without a doubt the best in the world! As we obviously have over 70% of what we produce available to use in such a trade practice, I happen to believe, that it should be relatively easy, to secure profitable export markets. Remember that 70% of our export, only translates to 6% of United States Imports!

Canadian wheat is another product, prized throughout the world for its’ exceptional quality! Just ask bakers throughout Europe! Canada produces superior products!

If we can provide high quality products, then why not pursue them internationally, to our benefit? The agriculture industry started that old practice, when agriculture products were placed onto the commodity exchange!

Last I heard, the world can not grow enough food to feed the hungry! Why even consider cutting back on our production?

This summer, we sold 6 culled cows, and netted a total of $357. 66. Don’t you think any of that beef ended up on consumer’s tables here in Canada? Perhaps those consumers only paid fifty or sixty cents a pound for it. Not a chance!!

How about offering to send our culls to countries that suffer from hunger? We could donate it through a non profit organization such as “Feed the children”, “Oxfam”, etc. In exchange, we would require a receipt, to use as a tax –write-off, with an acceptable value for that animal. This would help us, and help the hungry.

There are options out there, we just have to dig to find them!