let me get this straight

[Bez]

kpb

Your comment - Quote - I am attempting to devise a scheme so that we don't lose 50% of the ranchers in the next little while. Or, failing that, that the ranchers who do leave are compensated for leaving. - end quote

Admirable ideas lead to great expectations.

Well, my wife and I entered into an expansion program prior to the disaster hitting us last year. We have put the brakes on in a big way - for obvious reasons.

But the damage was done. After our business plan acceptance by all the financial, accounting and legal people and so on - we spent a lot of borrowed money - knowing full well we would be in a deficit position for at least 5 years.

Then BSE hit one year after we started.

If we had not attempted to streamline and improve our operation we would have managed. But we are now down to zero savings and zero buffer. It is the debt we incurred in our expansion plan that has basically killed us.

If you want to formulate a plan - well, find a way to either pay off that debt or hold off the banks and we make it. For me and multitudes of others.

Bottom line - the banks do not wait and my non-existant money from cais does not cut it. I can name several in my area in the same canoe. So, find me 76K and all will be well as we will not live outside our means ever again. Same as we did before we took the unprecedented step of borrowing to improve.

You and I both know this is not going to happen. But hope can always spring eternal.

Hold back money is nice - for those who have some reserve - we have none and therefore have decided not to participate - not enough buckolas in the bank for us to participate in this program.

Regards

Bez

[cswilson]

kpb since you don't respect my opinions-like I care-can you answer this question. Where are you situated in the beef industry-age,land base, cowherd size-I don't want to know what you had I'd like to know just where your arguement is coming from.

[kpb]

Bez has made the point of why we need to make a restructuring plan now better than anything I could possibly say. And Cowman has, as usual, articulatated what will happen if we don't get a contingency plan in place. I agree with him about the result but disagree that a supply management plan could not work. Such a plan would reward everyone currently ranching--either by providing a way to retire with dignity by selling their quota or by providing them a way to continue with a secure future in the cattle business.
cs wilson, you've called me a commie and you've called me a skunk. I will tell you that I remain a cattleman and derive all my income from cattle. I started my own operation and was lucky to expand pre-BSE. Bez's message is self-explanatory and I thank him for sharing it with us--I have friends in the same boat and I'm sick and tired of watching good men get beaten down. You may not like supply managment but it seems to me that I've presented the only ideas on this forum since I came on a couple of days ago to deal with borders staying closed and no federal protection of a domestic packing industry.
Cowman, you may just be right, if we aren't prepared to even recognize the problem, then I guess we're doomed to engage in supply managment as administered by the banks.

[cowman]

kpb: We, in the beef industry, had our chance at supply management about thirty some years ago when Eugene Whalen offered it to us, and we turned it down?
Supply mangement is on its way out. If it wasn't for the fact that most dairies and poultry operations were in Quebec/Ontario, it would have been phased out by now.
We are in a global market now, whether we like it or not. The fact is most of our ag industries can't compete with goods produced elsewhere! And especially against the countries that have no problem subsidizing their agriculture in a big way! Read that as Europe and the USA!
It is a sad thing what has happened to agriculture in Canada in the last 40 years or so. I believe it is a very short sighted view by politicians who really couldn't manage a hot dog stand, but then who am I?
It is frustrating to see my neighbors disappear and leave the countryside...and yet who can blame them? A young man would have to be an idiot to stay and live in poverty.
When I was young I made a decision to have a prosperous life! That wasn't going to happen in agriculture! Besides my nature was people oriented and I was never content to go round and round on a tractor!
So I combined the two and I believe I have the best of both worlds! The fact is, in Alberta, there is so much opportunity to make a buck it is scary! Just wish I could be five people at once so I could take advantage of it all!
We all have to do what is best for ourselves. I believe it is never right to put all your eggs in one basket, even though our government pushed that in a big way.
There are a lot of exciting opportunities in things like ag tourism. These halfwits will pay you to let them ride an old nag around or play cowboy, or other things like that! People won't pay for food but they sure will pay for recreation! Sort of like buying the sizzle rather than the steak!

[cswilson]

Ohhh aren't we the sensitive one-where did I ever call you a commie or a skunk-I said your vision is pretty much similar to what Russia tried which looks alot like communism-I don't need to call anyone names-you seem to be unable to answer simple questions though-Age?, land base?, location and number of cows. You know the old saying 'If you aren't a socialist at 20 you don't have a heart-if you aren't a conservative at 40 you don't have a brain'. I'm very curious as to where your positioned in the beef industry is all.

[cswilson]

'retire with dignity by selling their quota'-this quota they are selling I assume was provided to them free in your hypothetical herd reduction-I'm guessing you are alot closer to 50 then 30. I'm 42 with 4 kids-I've got some ground to make up equity wise and it won't happen in a supply managed-quota for sale-beef industry.

[greybeard]

First thing we need with a quota system is someone to decide how many animals it is going to take to make a living. Keep all that equipment shiny and new. We also need enough for a nice holiday in the winter like the city folks. So kpb, you be the guy that decides. How many cows to make a living under supply management?

[kpb]

greybeard, good question but it's the same one that could be asked now. Everbody's circumstances and standards of living are different so if I say I need 250 cows (just cow-calf) to make a living, you might say you need 100 or someone else might need 300. My idea of a quota would be to set a return on their calves for individuals and they would then have to decide how much quota they needed just like now they decide how big their herds should be.
By the way I'm still waiting for kato or rp kaiser or anyone else who's been reading these posts to give me THEIR proposal for what we should do as an industry if the border doesn't open and we can't get a domestic packing industry going. Seems like it that's not asking too much since that is currently the status quo--you'd think that maybe someone should be thinking about it. I'd hate to think that we're just going to drift along because we just don't want to think about bad things.

[cswilson]

kpb can't answer my questions-are they too complex for you-HOW OLD ARE YOU? HOW MANY COWS DO YOU OWN? WHAT PROVINCE DO YOU RANCH IN?

[cswilson]

I thought that I had already stated my position kpb. I beleive that we need slaughter capacity, and when it is here, we will be able to sell all the bef we need to sell. Certainly the Canadian plants run the risk of take over by Mutinationals, but take over is the key word. Get the infrustructure in place, and yes try to keep it Canadian, but if we can not do that, we will still have the capacity to harvest the number of animals we produce. This is without an open border.
I know you will point out the fact that this may involve multinationals, and maybe even more of them. I do not like that thought either, but capacity is our biggest, and maybe our only problem as we speak.