let me get this straight

[cswilson]

Cowman I just think you'd be trading your poisons especially if you gave the packer control of the genetics that you use-look at the turmoil in the grain industry over Roundup Ready Canola-if you think were the packer's bitch now the other scenario would be much worse. I have no trouble selling on a carcass grid-we know the carcass specs we need to hit and it's up to me to manage my resources as I see fit to reach them in the most profitable manner. If were going to go that route we might as well unionize and just draw a wage from whatever megaplayer were signing our livliehood over to.

[grassfarmer]

exactly so cswilson!

[cowman]

Well I never said that it would be easy, but if it could be done in a fair and equitable manner it could work?
There are a few things that always bothered me about the cattle business. One is this: We take a calf off momma who has hardly ever seen anybody but the owner and never ate anything but green grass and drank water out of a dugout,stream etc. We load him in a trailer take him to a mart where he is subject to all kinds of stress. He spends the night bawling and walking. He is driven through a loud noisy ring and sold. Mixed with a bunch of strange cattle and back on a truck for a long ride to the feedlot. There he is processed with a lot more stress and then put in a pen with strange feed, strange water and strange feed mates. Will he get sick? It is a bloody wonder that he doesn't get sick!
I believe if this whole process was eliminated it would be a lot better for the health of the calf?
Everyone is fairly disgusted with how the packers have been operating, but consider how it could be? Say if the packers were producer owned? And maybe the feedlots too?
So we have a system like this: ABP packers(producer owned) signs a contract with John Doe cow person to recieve his calves Oct. 30 at a target weight? A sliding scale adds or subtracts to everyones satisfaction. The calves are delivered to ABP feedlot(producer owned) and fed to the target weight and grade and then delivered to ABP packers? Now we've eliminated the auction barn, we've eliminated the cattle buyer, we've eliminated one truck ride, we've eliminated probably one brand inspection and we've eliminated about two checkoffs. We've probably eliminated some vet expenses?
Any profit at the end of the day would go back to the producer? Perhaps the producer would retain ownership to the point the carcass is sold to the retailer?

[farmers_son]

The future cattle industry that cowman is presenting to us is very likely. Given that this is a likely future for the industry we can see just how critically important that the packing plants are owned by producers (and not just one or two mega producers but thousands of producers) who are in control of their destiny. Otherwise our destiny is in the hands of Cargill, Tyson Foods and other mega players who simply do not have the best interests of the actual cow calf producer first and foremost.

The challenge for producers is how to make it happen, to take charge of our destiny and build a viable future for our farms and children. There are considerable obstacles to achieving a brighter new future, not the least of which is the vested interest of the existing big players represented by the Canadian Meat Council but also government who get more political mileage from handing producers subsidy cheques than creating real opportunities for grass root producers to become vertically integrated up the supply chain through ownership of the calf right from birth to box. I do not believe the government is behind us producers on this one and they need to be before this kind of change will happen.

In hindsight BSE may be the best thing that ever happened to our beef industry if we as producers can get organized and create change that benefits us. We as producers need to own the packing plants or we are destined to become piece work employees of the multinationals.

[farmers_son]

Great stuff! The only thing I can think of to add would be that "producer owned" means almost anything we can think of beyond "multinational pirates".

New Generation Co-op's, Sunterra (big money producer ownership), Gerry Fleming's Levy funded plant (for us folks who don't have the big bucks), and any other bright new idea that this crisis has generated.

That trip through hell for the weaned calf that you talk of cowman, will still have to be,(and always has been) up to you, or the individual.

[kpb]

The numbers show that the average calf changes hands four times from birth to slaughter and I have often felt that if producers were able to eliminate all this middle-man activity, their profits would be considerably enhanced. Just by simply retaining ownership as a managment plan, you can increase the profitability of that critter.
Farmers_son, I agree completely with your point about producer-ownership of packing plants but I fear for the future of these plants as long as our federal government will not enact legislation to protect the domestic packing industry. We HAD a domestic industry not that long ago--we cannot expect a domestic industry to survive now against the multi's when the old industry could not. And the economic environment is actually more difficult now than it was then.
Everyone has noble intentions in this area, which I think is fine, but without government support these plants cannot survive.
And rp kaiser, I think you said in a previous thread somewhere that even if the new domestic plants were eventually taken over by the foreign multi's, it would not matter since our packing capacity would increase. I totally disagree with this view--as long as our ability to slaughter our own animals is not controlled by ourselves we will always be on the edge of another disaster.

[kpb]

That was a rather short term thought on my part kbp. Sometimes too many things going in to this head at once, and not enough thought on what comes out.

Packing capacity is crucial in the short term. I would also prefer to see Canadians and even better yet, producers own these plants. Some will fail, and hopefully other Producer initiatives will take over.

My apologies kbp.

[farmers_son]

It absolutely crucial that a wide cross section of producers are able to participate in the ownership of Alberta's and Canada's packing plant industry. And there is no question that government needs to commit to see this happen. Not just more packing capacity but packing capacity owned by average producers like you and I. I am concerned that there are a lot of challenges to be overcome before that will actually happen and the goal of an average producer actually participating further up the beef supply chain is achieved. I have not seen where either the Alberta government or the Federal government is onside. Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen where the ABP is onside. There is a lot of agreement on the need for the average producer to be able to participate in the packing plant side of the industry but I question if we know how to get there.

[cowman]

farmers son: While I laid out a scenario where things could work the fact is it just isn't going to happen?
Cargill and IBP are in the process of expanding to such a degree that they should be able to get all the fats dead?
And this is with the blessing and wholehearted support of the Alberta government and the ABP?
But consider this: The producer doesn't need to own the packing house/feeding complex if the rules were in place where the packer had to offer a fair contract for the calves? Now this would require the government to "regulate" the industry! The packers always claim they are making their money on a slim margin and quite often operate in the red, so they should be receptive to a stable guaranteed profit? No more windfall profits, no more windfall losses?
Of course if they chose not to operate in this type of market, they could always sell out to a producer operated system? Perhaps BIG Cs suggestion of government bridge financing and a surcharge on every animal could be used to buy them out?

[kpb]

cowman, you are correct that the packing industry, if not domestic-based, at least needs to be government regulated. Frankly I see absolutely no signs of this happening and I also don't see any of our so-called industry groups pushing for this, do you?
If all our industry groups, which supposedly represent us, pushed together for government regulation to control the packers I think we have a chance of something happening. But I don't see this taking place--whenever I hear the industry leaders on the radio they're sure not talking about regulating the packing industry. They're always talking about either getting the border open or short-term government support programs. I think farmers_son has it absolutely right when he says that the new plants have to be owned by the producers and have to be protected by the government. But, sadly, I see no sign of this taking place. And for that reason I see little hope of the Canadian packing industry being able to survive on a long-term basis, even if it is able to get off the ground which I think is doubtful.