Time for Action

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, cereals certainly belong to the grass family but the cereals of even 40 years ago are so different from todays plants. We have bred for huge grain yields and low straw yields leading to a lot more powerfull feed. I hate barley as a cattle feed - oats are far more suitable in my opinion as they aren't so hot, don't burn up the animals inside or cause acidosis.

On the copper/selenium issue, yes we should be aware of what our land is producing through the grass. Purdeys theory links low copper levels with high manganese levels to trigger the possible BSE chain of events he believes in. In Scotland we were on chronically low copper land but the manganese was not high - our area saw few cases of BSE. Here I am on land that is possible slightly low on copper but not to a significant degree and as far as I know I am not high in Manganese, correct me if I am wrong on that last one.

I grudge the price of Ivomec but do use it. My brother is a scientist and assures me ivermectin is a very safe drug despite the long period it remains in the body. He was warning us years ago of the dangers of organo-phos chemicals in the sheep dip etc and we weren't taking him seriously, now I wish I had. Again I don't know what you really need in this country - in Scotland we never wormed adult cattle and they never needed treated for lice unless they came indoors. Our young cattle were wintered indoors and always needed delousing so we ivomeced them. Laterly we moved back to an old fashioned "pink" worm drench on them and treated lice with a powder if needed - much cheaper and worked well. I proposed doing the same program here and was told that I should use Ivomec because of the deer spreading lice and also the giardia and crypto in the river water which my cows drink occasionally. What do you think is the necessary treatment for worms/lice?

[cakadu]

Anything used for a long enough time will see resistance being built up to it so that eventually it becomes less effective.

Fortunately for us here in Alberta and most of Canada, we generally have the weather to take care of any horrendous problems ie. the winter months.

Switching between wormers etc. does help to lessen the resistance.

It also helps when you have animals that are naturally resistant to internal parasites. I guess we are lucky with our sheep because they do have a natural resitance to internal parasites and lice have never really been a consideration.

Management decisions also help to lessen the dependence on wormers i.e. not letting them eat the grass really short and allowing for re-growth between rotations.

We are not really deficient in selenium around here and copper seems to be okay as sheep cannot tolerate much copper and we would be seeing problems with it if there was too much or not enough.

Wouldn't it be nice to get some solid evidence one way or another as to what exactly is the cause of the TSE's?

[grassfarmer]

Interesting comment on the copper levels Cakadu. I was asked to look at a sheep recently on an acreage as their ram lamb had taken convulsions in the summer and now walks like he is drunk. One look at him was enough to tell me it was swayback - or copper deficiency before he was born. Our land was so copper short in Scotland we had to inject 2mls of copper sulphate at 8 weeks and 4 weeks before lambing to prevent it. Copper certainly can be toxic to sheep particularily suffolks and the French breeds for some reason but equally a shortage of it can be a severe problem too. Does anyone inject sheep with copper in Alberta?

[cakadu]

Most of what I have heard is copper toxicity, so I can't say that I have heard anyone that has injected copper. Our hair sheep seem to have a bit higher tolerance for copper than the wooled breeds, but I wouldn't want to push them on it.

I know that the gas plants and all the sulphur can cause a selenium shortage, but I'm not sure about what causes a copper shortage.

[cowman]

Well east of highway #2 the soil is pretty deficient in copper and selenium. So deficient in copper that it is standard practice now to add it in the fertilizer blend on cropland.
Without feeding selenium I doubt we could even raise cattle here.
The minerals are basically becoming depleted on this soil and there isn't much that can be done, except to supplement?
I have a real problem with putting systematics on animals. Just doesn't seem right somehow that something that can kill all those organisms inside and outside the animal can be good? Tried ivomec about 10 years ago and didn't think it did anything for my cattle. They still were scratching away come spring!
As far as I can see with lice they only affect the animal for about a month or so? Can't find one until the temperature is just right? At least the small red lice? Haven't had any of the big blue ones for years. Haven't seen a warble fly for several years?
So my answer is I don't use anything for lice, worms, or grubs. Now mind you my cattle are not ever in a position where they eat the grass down hard nor are they fed on the same ground everyday in the winter. And they always have lots of fresh straw for bedding.

[grassfarmer]

I might try that approach too Cowman, as you say a drug that is potent that it kills months after it is applied is a pretty unpleasant one to work with. It certainly is extremely toxic to fish and cats as well I believe. Deer and moose have managed on this continent for a long time without anyone treating their lice problems - perhaps again they have naturally selected for tolerance to these pests. Do adult cows need treated for giardia and crypto though? mine occasionally drink water from the Medicine river which is supposidly very dirty and is full of beaver up here.

[cowman]

I don't know the answer to that grassfarmer. I wonder if there is any info or studies on how those two parasites might affect cattle?

[pandiana]

grassfarmer, regarding ticks in wildlife I remember very well fall and winter a few years back. We say yealing moose calves that were emaciated and had turned while grazing in the ditch too sick to run away. A neighbor had a cow calv in her back yard, again too weak to care for herself, looking for easy feed. Nature can be a cruel master. We also see coyotes and foxes with mange that eventually just disappear when things get tough.