"show cattle"

[grassfarmer]

I spend a few hours at Farmfair yesterday and came back pondering the relevance of "show" cattle to today's industry. At a time we are being bombarded with advice telling us to realise we are business and to start treating it as such where does the show ring fit in?
In my opinion an awful lot of cattle there were commercially useless. I wouldn't buy a rising two year old bull of any breed if he weighed close to, or over, 2000lbs. He wouldn't live long enough under commercial conditions to pay for himself. Some of the spring bull "calves" on show weighing 1100lbs plus were worse than the older bulls in this respect. In this era of high tech selection tools like gene mapping why do we persist with competitive showing that relies totally on one man's visual assesment of type and quality?
I know there will probably always be competition between breeders and it is right that they compare cattle. Why not use some common sense though? I read about 15 years ago that all the Simmentals shown at one of the (huge) South African shows had to be shown in a progency group if they had calved at least once. I saw some huge, first calf heifers yesterday, weaned for who knows how long, in butter fat condition weighing 1600lbs but what were their calves like back at home? Were there 400lbs among them? I think that the leading Simmental sale in North America in recent years has been the outfit that relies on South African genetics.
As a means to improve out Canadian beef industry longterm wouldn't it be an idea to rethink what we are aiming to breed - efficient beef genetics or "elephant beef" got by show judges placing the over fed monsters first regardless of production cost and market relevance?

[rusty1]

Well said. Too much of the PB industry relys on a "You scratch my back I'll scratch Yours".

[rusty1]

Over the years I have shown cattle, bought show cattle and been involved in a purbred association. You are correct in saying that the show cattle couldn't function in a commercial operation, I know that for a fact. Have bought both show bulls and heifers and they fell to pieces when they had to eat the same feed and walk the same pastures as the rest of my herd. A soggy fat two year old bull is a recipe for disaster as far as breeding is concerned. Ask the guys that run the grazing reserves, they'll tell you that the big fat show type bulls are out lying in the bush chewing their cud and the little range bulls are doing the work !!
I do feel that showing cattle is necessary for the dedicated breeders that want to promote their cattle to the commercial producer.
Shows like Canadian Bull Congress are a great place to market and promote bulls. Farmfair has always been the first leg of the two show circuit for the die hard show folks, with the second show being Agribition of course. BSE certainly changed the way a lot of the purebred folks do business, numbers in shows are down and numbers of purebred cattle being registered are way down. I haven't been to a purebred sale this fall, but it is going to be interesting to see what the averages are. I know that some of the sale numbers were down at Farmfair.

[15444]

Once again, it is nice to see that whiteface and I are not alone in our quest to produce cattle that are 'functional', even though I think she probably has kinder words for some of the folks in the purebred industry. I on the other hand am a little more harsh on many breeders that like the feed pail to much *cough* Remitall *cough* . I think Herefords probably have it the worst when it comes to show cattle as we are cursed with a 'two-tone' breed. So many guys are more caught up in having only red-necked, or goggle-eyed Herefords, that they lose sight of what a beef animal is really for, BEEF! There is too much variability in the Hereford breed, aka birth weights, performance in all levels, and other characteristics; and I blame it all on the show strings. If we could only get away from the barley pails, the creep feeders and the spray cans, maybe the Hereford breed could gain some ground in the industry! Ok, gotta stop daydreaming.

grassfarmer: Was just at the Douglas bull test station in Douglas, Manitoba, last weekend. Flipping through the weights collected on Nov 2nd, I am seeing a bunch of Charolais bulls over the 1100 lb. mark. Now I doubt these bulls are straight off pasture? More likely a bull that was part of a summer showstring? I agree I don't fancy these bulls over 2000 lbs as a two year old. Sold my 2 year old bull last spring, @ 1670 lbs. Not pushed with feed as a yearling or when he was two. I saw him in August and he is pushing the 2000 lb. mark at 3 1/2 yrs now. Personally I think that my way is the better way to grow out a bull. That bull I sold walks like a cat in the pasture. Many of the show bulls walk so perfectly in the showring, but I wonder how they do on a section of land when they are 4 or 5 and their feet haven't been touched up? How many have their knees blow out by the time they are 1 or 2 yrs?

emrald1: Looking at some of the Hereford sales so far, seeing some difference in the prices of smaller lots like heifer calves and bulls, but bred yearlings and cows are still getting a decent dollar. Really makes me wonder if there actually is any commercial guys going to the sales or if it is just a bunch of purebred guys swapping genes?

whiteface: On another note, I love the calves that you are consigning to the Alberta Polled Power Sale. That 372P heifer is just gorgeous! Balanced, long, smooth...she is just too good. Someone better give you a pretty penny for her!

[dalek]

It's even worse in dairy. When I was in 4-H, I always treated my show calves the same as the other calves in the barn were treated, and most years I was placed last because my calf was "too fat". The last two years, our vet kept track of the older show calves, and came back and told me that my heifer was the only one that conceived and ended up milking. The others were so malnourished to look "dairy" enough for the ring that they never cycled again and were culled.

[grassfarmer]

15444, I agree with you on your bull developement plan - that is the way I rear bulls. I've had several tonne bulls over the years including a Galloway - but these bulls were all 5 or 6 years old before they reached that weight...on grass. If they reach 2000lbs at under 2 they will never in my opinion hit that weight again on grass alone - because you have turned them into barley burners.
At least your herefords are a recognizable breed - compare that to the black Angus(or chianina x angus)and it's black offspring in the Limousin, South Devon, Saler, Gelbvieh, Maine breeds - what a bunch of mongrels!

[wd40]

grassfarmer are you sugesting that Angus has some other breeds in them. I figure that Simental is the best thing that happened to the Hereford breed.

[wd40]

grassfarmer, I would go a bit easy on calling any black crossbreds mongrels. AS long as I continue to get top dollar for my black cross calves, and my black bred heifers I really don't give a tinkers darn who might think they are mongrels. There are good and bad in every breed, and I have found that if a person raises good cattle in their particular breed, they don't have to knock another mans cattle to be successful in the business.

[grassfarmer]

I agree that there is good and bad in every breed - and every breed has it's role to play somewhere in the beef industry. I just hate this N.American craze of crossbreeding pedigree cattle to a bull of another breed to change it's hide colour and still pretending that they are pedigree, pure cattle. There has never been a black Simmental, Gelbvieh, Saler, Limousin, South Devon or Maine in Europe where these breeds came from, these are all the result of crossbreeding. Let's just be honest and stop pretending these "naturally different coloured" ones exist in nature.

[15444]

WD40: Simmentals did help the Hereford gain height and frame in a very short period of time. However, I find it dispicable that the CHA allowed the registration of animals in 2001 that were sired by the bull, S Titan 7777, a bull from the 80's that was known to have Simmental in him.

On a different note, I find it quite sad that traditional Simmentals seem to becoming a rare sight in many show barns. As far as I am concerned, the Simmental breed proved that colour is the only thing that matters to most people in the cattle industry.

I agree with you grassfarmer. It irks me something fierce when I hear the Charolais people talk about the red factor in the Charolais (as though it was always present and just not shown in the breed), when they really should just be classed as glorified buckskins.

As we are talking about colours in cattle, I found this:

http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/CowPatterns.html

[cswilson]

There were some Full French Charolais cattle that were darn near red when they arrived here.'Mongrels' Ha Ha Ha half us humans fall under that umbrella too and were all doing o.k.-face it one man's mongrel is another man's composite is another man's profit lol.

[greybeard]

Not only are they turning them black, they are making them more moderate framed. Adding better udder traits also seems to be a goal. Then you don’t have to be there to get the calf started once the cow is more than a few years old. By golly, I think they are trying to make them look like Angus!
When you drive south thru ranch country in the USA all you see are black cattle. Commonly described as “Montana” type Angus. They don’t have no time for those larger “east coast” type Angus. It would be very hard to sell any other color.

[greybeard]

Producers will raise what the market demands. Black calves used to sell for 10 cents back not that many years ago, and anyone that had them took them to the markets like Ponoka or Innisfail to sell, now when a good set of black calves are run into the ring the buyers go crazy, even in todays depressed markets. I have been in the purebred business for 30 years, and was NEVER going to allow a black bull on the place. I attended numerous sales and saw the blacks top the reds at every one, so decided to breed half my herd black, and I am not sorry. This year I got 50% black calves all polled. When I sold them I topped the market and the price on the blacks was a couple of cents higher than the reds. The buyers new they were limo calves and that is what they were looking for to fill their orders on that particular day.
My four year old black Limo bull went to a ranch near Cochrane this spring and was used on Sim/Red Ang cross females, the folks are very anxious to see the calves !!!
Polled cattle in the Limo breed didn't impress me for many years, they were short coupled, dumpy and didn't have the performance of the horned cattle. Now it is tough to market a horned bull and the polled cattle are as good doing cattle as any.
Progress is measured by cash in hand in this business, and when times are tough the producer needs every extra dollar he can generate. If it means straying away from the traditional color of cattle, then so be it.

[grassfarmer]

cswilson, Maybe they were fool's French Charolais imports rather than full French ;o) Non-white Charolais do not occur in France, in fact if you look at the likes of Rawes herd - the pioneer and biggest herd in Canada they don't have reds either. Again if "red-factor" works for someone great, but these are not purebred cattle. The danger with this merging of all the breeds spearheaded by the likes of Leachman is that it significantly reduces the gene pool available for future breeding. We need to maintain diversity in all aspects of agriculture and that, emrald, is why I would condemn this type of breeding as short termism of the worst kind.

[circlex]

15444
You should go back to the web site in sask. that you pointed out and read under the white cattle. You must not of read the whole document before the post you made or you would not have made the comment about the red factor in the charolais breed.I agree with the other posts about the cross breeding. We are all trying to get the best cattle possible and profitable. We may not all agree on the cattle that each other may raise and thats a good thing or we all would be in more trouble than we already are in. If you raise any grains of any sort do you still raise the same ones that you grew 20 yrs ago? We all look for what we feel is best for our situation and what we figure will make us the most money in the end.
This is the url in case you can't find it again.



http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/colors.html#White