Digital BSE

[ianben]

The digital camera has destroyed Kodacs film and processing businesses. Kodac has announced closedowns and layoffs.
Many will have to find new jobs and start again through no fault of their making.

Will Canadian farmers produce a record calf crop in 05?

Will Bush reward his loyal rural suporter by crashing their beef prices?

A pre BSE border is a dream.
US will take your oil and gas but wheat beef and lumber!!

Learn from Kodac

[grassfarmer]

Unlike Kodak beef producers are not producing a product that is technologically outdated so I don't think we need to shut up shop yet. I don't know how it will end up ianben but here we are much more dependant on exporting than you were in the UK. Your Government wants to run down agriculture (look at the decoupling scheme) where N.America has a wealth of raw production to exploit. The #1 problem here is the control over all agricultural production by transnational corporations.

[Cedar]

Grassfarmer:

decoupling scheme....??? (what is that?)

"The #1 problem here is the control over all agricultural production by transnational corporations."

Got that bloody right!!!!

Is that not a problem in the UK as well?

[grassfarmer]

Cedar, "Decoupling" refers to decoupling subsidies in Europe from production. Essentially it is a move to paying subsidies to NOT produce rather than pay them to produce! If you had 200 cows over the last 5 years, under the new system you will earn the same level of subsidy even if you only keep 20 cows. People will reduce stock numbers, many need to as they are running artificially high numbers just now, but the knock on effect will be huge - I think many farm workers will be laid off, infrastructure will decline as there will be less need for auctions, slaughter plants, machinery. In my mind it is a clear move to reduce agriculture in Europe and increase imports from less populated areas overseas - a move I saw coming before I moved to Canada. Transnational corporations do exist in the UK - especially in the chemical/seed field but they don't have the big packer control over the beef sector. The retailers(big supermarket chains) are the ones with the real power to drive down producer prices - they dictate prices to the "packer" level.

[cakadu]

Grassfarmer, that brings up a couple of questions that maybe you can answer. How many packers of any size are there in the UK? Would there be producer owned processors there?

The smaller butcher shops that sell the cuts of meat, do they buy their meat from the same processors and then cut it to suit customer needs or do they do it all there i.e. kill, cut and then sell to the public?

What is it that makes the retailers so powerful and I would guess that you mean M&S, Tesco etc.?

[ianben]

Kodak had 50% over capasity for todays market not necessarily an out dated product some people will still use films and want prints.

Canadian beef is over produced by about same amount without an open border or more kill capacity is it not?

Neither of which appear to be near resolution so is anyone even thinking of calving less for 05?

Over production is our problem not multi nationals supermarkets packers or governments.

Decoupling is removing the subsidy from production.
The theory is we will be able produce only what the market requires; shorten the supply chain: sell before you plant.
or produce.

In practice it would appear UK beef production is a non starter as imported beef is cheap and the guys who survived BSE will now have to find an alternative income.

Just like the Kodak employees.

Why are farmers any different?

BSE is not fair but has happened

US EU Third world policies are a fact of life.

Packers and supermarkets just like us exist to make as much profit as possible.

If we over produce they will make us pay.

[ianben]

Cadadu
Our supermarkets Tesco, Asda(walmart), Sainbury, Morrisons (taken over safeway)due realy seem to compete for market share.

This is very good in the short term for the customer(cheap food) but supplyers get squeezed and squeezed again.

Tesco seems to be winning at the moment big profits in £s but not that great realy on turnover and investment. Sainbury just posted a loss so even supermarkets dont get it right all the time.

[grassfarmer]

Cakadu, There were a number of packer groups in the UK when I left in 2000, not that many that had more than one plant - maybe 4 or 5 bigger players. Many are in the hands of rogue Irishmen - they are tough players who bend and twist the rules to their advantage. Remember also with the smaller stock numbers there we didn't need plants to kill 4000 head a day. I'm trying to think of producer owned plants and can't really come up with any - am I forgetting some ianben?
Traditionally the small market towns had all butchers shops and they bought fat cattle at the local auction took them to the slaughter plant which each town seemed to have before taking them back to the shop for final cutting. With the times changing fewer towns have butchers, some don't sell fats through the live ring and many town abattoirs have closed in the face of ridiculous health standards. It's said that no one can afford to build a new slaughter plant in the UK to the required standards - and I mean NO one not even the big guys.
From all this the supermarkets have gained power - many modern consumers have never been to a butchers shop as they don't exist in many big towns or cities. Supermarket chains have the power to lower their procurement costs because they buy in beef from overseas directly to manipulate the market.The UK retailers just happen to be the biggest fish in the bowl, I suppose because they are chain operations rather than independant like the packers there. There is a fair bit of "vertical integration" with Tesco selling beef from the packers McIntosh- Donald in Scotland. There are all kind of rules to comply with for you to sell to this packer - like Mc Donalds are doing here - farm assurance etc, all at the farmers expense to the retailers benefit and they can drop the price of fat cattle any time they like by increasing imports. Very much a one way street - we take all the risk and expense - they take all the profits.
Yeah beef's a mess there too, am I right Ian?