Megamectin

[grassfarmer]

Started treating the cattle today with megamectin the generic ivermectin and am not impressed. Treated 85 calves in the first pen x 30mls followed by 34 cows x 60mls at which point the first bottle ran out. The bottles are 5 litres but I should only have used 4.5 litres - less in fact because I eased back on the trigger on a few smaller animals. Tested the gun and it appears accurate, didn't spill any and didn't treat any twice. Any one else been short changed with this type of product? At $400 a bottle it's too damn expensive in the first place - I'll be complaing in the morning.

[poorboy]

Could you get the gun to work? Mine wouldn't let any air into the 5 liter jug, so we actually underapplied. The only good thing about it is the price.

[grassfarmer]

I really like their gun actually - it spreads far better than the Ivomec one. No problem with the air intake but when I switched bottles it started to leak straight away. It looks like a piece of plastic needs tightening up near the pipe outlet. Still Ivomec always leaked after a while anyway - I just hate having that expensive stuff drip on my back.
So what is the theory on under application? will your cattle not be adequately protected or is it good if you get 75% of the product on them? I see a lot of people treat cows as they run past them at a gate, some get it down the side, a few mis-hits. I always put them through the race which takes longer but makes a better job. I'm not really convinced with these pour on products, it's a lot of money gone in a short time - was it necessary?

[kato]

Dectomax has a really good gun. It's like a shower head, and spreads it in a pretty wide stripe.

To get the chewing lice, pour on is the best way to go. They actually have to walk through the place you put it on, and come in contact with the dander there in order to be killed. That's why you need to spread it all down the back. Injectable gets the sucking ones, but not the chewers.

We put it on our calves in the spring when they go to pasture. It keeps the flies off for about a month. They are little, so it's not expensive to do them.

[grassfarmer]

Kato, I've always had this problem believing in pour-ons - they tell you it must be applied evenly down the back to work yet these are clearly systemic treatments that work by being absorbed through the skin and into the bloodstream hence giving 1ml per 10kgs or whatever the dose is. It sounds to me like a load of BS selling a supposidly systemic product to farmers but still telling them to put it all down the spine so the critters will be sure to walk through it every day and be killed.
We faced the same dilemma in Scotland with spray on blow fly treatments on sheep. Systemic products but unless they were applied evenly down the back they wouldn't guarantee their success. It's rather bogus advice / marketing for a product that costs so much money. I'm told the Ivermectin products cost about $1-$2 per litre to produce.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I wonder how much systematic insecticides are used in Europe? How do the consumers like that? It seems they aren't to keen on buying North American beef because of the hormones and I thought therefore they might be sort of down on all chemical farming?
Personally I quit using systematics and hormones on my cattle about 10 years ago. Just didn't see any kind of economic benifit to tell you the truth...at least from the systematics! Now the hormones did wonders but I just started to feel something just wasn't right when the steers started looking and acting like bulls and the heifers came bulling at 300 lbs.!
One other question? When that old Ivomec goes dribbling down your back, do you find you do awful well that winter and pack on some extra pounds?

[cakadu]

I agree with you cowman, we don't use those things on our sheep because we just don't see the benefits. The bigger problem that I can see is that after using them for several years in a row, I would think that the little critters would build up a resistance to the stuff and then you have to go out and either find stronger stuff or switch so that the resistance is lessened.

I would think that if the stuff is meant to work systemically, it does the same on us as it does on the animals. Probably doesn't hurt to get a good cleaning out once in a while? ;-)

Grassfarmer does raise a good point though - do we need to do it the way they are saying, or would less actually do the job? After all, who has the most to gain if you buy big jugs of the stuff?

[kato]

Grassfarmer, it's systemic in that it gets into the system and kills the sucking lice when they go to drink blood. Since chewing lice don't do that, they just walk around on the surface and bite away on dandruff and such, it won't work unless you spread it around.

The other options for lice control are Spotton, or a back rubber with Malathion in it. I don't know what's worse, soaking them in insecticide, or putting something on them that you can taste in your mouth if you get it on your hand, like spotton, or something like Ivomec or such.

What does everyone else here do for lice control?

I know in our part of the country you will have a real mess by spring if you don't do something. You end up with bald cows losing weight, and feeders you can hardly give away.

[grassfarmer]

Interesting replies folks,
Cowman, Consumers in Europe aren't too afraid of the treatments we give cows because they are ignorant of what is used - they know they don't want hormones and they perceive that fruit and veg is all laden with pesticides, beyond that farming is a mystery to most of them. We have never used hormone implants in cattle and even when they were allowed in the UK they were not in widespread use like they are here.

Kato, if the chewing lice eat dandruff shouldn't that be enough to kill them? If it is powerful enough to stay in the cow for the 49 day withdrawl period it should be coming through in the dandruff by then surely?
You mention Spotton and Malathion.... aaarrgghh! they won't be coming on my place. Based on Organo Phoshates these are real nasty pieces of work. This brings up the other hidden health disaster in the UK - OP poisoning. To eradicate sheep scab the Government had a compulsory treatment program through the 80s and early 90s based on OPs and many farmers and dipping contractors got ill as a result. I know one man who has had his life ruined by it - physical and neurologic problems the same as the Gulf war veterans got. Of course the Government would be liable if OP was proven the cause so like the BSE fiasco the court cases get bogged down for decades and the truth never comes out.

Cakadu, we moved from dipping 1400 sheep twice a season to using pour-ons then to shearing dirty tails as needed as a means to control blow flies and although it was a pain sometimes the latter was definately the best option.

I'm still trying to work out what I need to use in Canada as we never treated outside cows for lice or worms in Scotland only the youngstock that were kept indoors. We used injectable Ivomec for them but laterly moved back to an old "pink" dose for worms and treated lice with powder if it occurred.
Maybe I don't need to treat my cows for lice here either? they winter out in fields with windreaks not in bush pastures although we do have a deer population on the place. I have never believed you need to treat mature cows for worms but here my vet tells me all the tests have shown that Ivomec pays for itself many times over. I finally got him to admit that the pharmaceutical companies had paid for all the tests - and of course he is selling their products for them.

[cakadu]

Grassfarmer, what is the OP in sheep that you are referring to? I think I know, but I thought I should check with you to be sure.

Out of curiosity, are lice something that you cannot get rid of entirely? Presumably if you treat them, then it should get rid of them so is there a reason they keep recurring and necessitate semi-annual or annual treatments?

[cswilson]

I think basically we treat 100 percent of our cattle to get the 10 percent that might be compromised by parasites-We didn't do the cows last year and a few lost some hair but a few hundred didn't. The Ivomec type products did seemlike wonder drugs when they came out especially if you liked to buy 2nd cut cattle and upgrade them-the reason they were second cut is probably they were in the 10 percent I mentioned above-knock the worms out of them and away they'd go.

[kato]

This is a good conversation...

I agree with grassfarmer about the Spotton and Malathion. They both have not much appeal. As for the pour on and the chewing lice, we've had neighbours who used the injectable because it was raining, and had big failures in chewing lice control. (They had the cattle tested, and it was confirmed.)

I guess if the cattle are out on open range more in the winter, they won't be as big of a problem, but here in Manitoba we get a lot of snow and a lot of cold, and the cattle do spend a lot of time in sheds, or else hanging around in very close contact in the yards. The lice just seem to love it too.

It's a problem, and I wish there was a miracle cure for it.

As far as worms go, Safeguard does a pretty good job at a reasonable price. It gets tapeworms too, which the others don't get. I remember years ago we had a calf that just wasn't doing well, so we put him in the chute to check him out. He was all excited, and let a tapeworm fly that was about 3 feet long! Gross! We treated him with Levasole, and you could actually almost see him gain weight after that. How he got tapeworms, I do not know, but it's the first and last time we ever saw one.

[cowman]

I wonder how the organic boys manage? I mean are all their cattle lousy and full of worms? You would think they might have a tough time selling those parasite infested animals?
There are people who seem to be raising a very good product without chemicals? The Hovens of Eckville come to mind?
I believe they raise what might be a superior product...or at least they are sure paid very well for it?

[WoolyBear]

Dectomax pour on for the cattle, Ivomec drench (or Valbazen) for the sheep and Safeguard (0 day withdrawal) in the feed for the hogs are the dewormers of choice on our farm. I have read about diatomatous earth and salt mixes for worm control in ruminants........... any thoughts out there about that?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, as you say Hovens have a great reputation as organic producers - they must have ways to control their pests - ps I heard from a good friend that their steaks were v. disappointing though - tough as hell.
woolybear, I know diatomatous earth works on poultry - as does a dustbath due to the fine particles litteraly choking the lice. I don't know how you could use it on cattle to get the same effect. After cswilsons comments it would suggest to me that it might be worth not treating the 10% for worms but culling them or not keeping progency off them - would you eventually get a herd that didn't need wormed? That would be progress.