FW Bulls

[cowman]

Is that old breeder an old breeder cowman? I mean, is he out of the business? I would say that his evaluation may fit the show breeder, however, the long term career cattleman must ad at least another 40% to that breeding selection tool (beef cattle not oxen), and take most of that BS and replace it with integrity. Or he will be an old breeder before his time.

[Willowcreek]

"So hey, back to my question, do you think you could find the bull that would make you the best daughters? Or would you just take my word for it, hypothetically if you were buying a bull from me? Or would you be one of those that insisted you wanted maternal and calving ease and then pick the "simmental or charolais" looking calves to take home? "

Whiteface- Actually that is what I have done for several years in picking bulls. I have a friend that I know his cows are the type that I want- he knows each cow better than I do, so I pretty much let him do the selection. He usually keeps about 20 bull calves a year for himself and to sell to a few neighbors- I just have him pick out one or two a year for me. Its worked great. One year I had a couple bulls get crippled during the breeding season- the only bull he had left was the ugliest little thing I ever saw. No ears, no tail- turned out to be one of the best I ever owned. Only problem I've seen is that he's having a harder time each year finding ABS bulls to use that don't throw several inches of frame.

[greybeard]

Sorry guys (and gals). I don’t think I appreciated the quality of the PB breeders on this board. I’m totally impressed. It goes a long way to answering my question on who we trust to look after our future genetics. I think some of my fear comes from hanging around the heavy horse barn. Taller is always better, and the big dollar buyers fly in.
The take home message seems to be look at the cows and don’t be distracted by “fed on” performance. One old boy told me that three times thru with bulls from one supplier and both herds are genetically the same.
I totally agree, as buyers we love that performance. It’s like the Holy Grail to some. They never stop looking. They think they have found it in one breed, and three years later a whole new set of bulls shows up. I guess we want the biggest calves at the market as a result of one bull purchase.
I buy pretty much as willow creek describes above. I just try to make sure they come from the top part of the index. I trust the breeder to select for udders, temperament, etc.
But back to my original question. Aren’t most hobby breeders also chasing that same “Holy Grail”? Fat sells.

[whiteface]

They certainly have to be "fat enough" in order to compete, whether it's the showring or the sale barn (commercial or purebred). If they're not, the potential buyers looking at the animals will assume (either consciously or unconsciously) that the animal in question was fed the same as the other animals in the barn and if it's not "fat enough" the potential buyer has some doubts surrounding the mother's milking ability or the question animals own feed performance. Not very often but on occasion or two (particularly with some breeders obsession that if good condition sells well, "fat" must sell that much better!!!) an overly plump animal gets fired to the back of the bus (end of his class or a waaay low seller at a sale) and the reason actually comes out as, "I think this animal is too "fat" (some judges will substitute the word fat for "coarse" "lacking femininity" "more brisket than I like" "not moving quite right" (how do YOU walk carrying an extra few hundred pounds!!!!!!!) but the answer is the same, they can't be TOOO fat or they'll get penalized and everyone who doesn't have the winning animal or the capacity to buy the top seller comes back with "is that bugger ever fat, there's no way it'll work, glad I don't (or didn't) own it. Lots of no fat animals don't work either. That's no better an excuse than "wow, look at the performance on this big (fat) bull, I just had to own him!!!!!
Sure we like big calves, but big calves grow into big cows that nobody seems to want. And incidentally, I remind a lot of "young" people (anyone younger than me in the tricky business of marketing) that size and fat alone won't get you the winner or high seller, they got to be good-looking and the right type too.
I appreciate your endorsement greybeard, in that you might have a little respect for the struggles that some of us go through in meeting the requests of all our buyers. Buyers by the way that are demanding and know what they want most of the time and if I don't have it, I know all too well that I may lose him permanently to one of my (I still respect you all!) competitors. There are lots out there and I sure do my best to listen to what you all want, provide and stand behind the product. Every once in a while, I also try to do a little gussing in advance of a trend. Thanks for reading, have a good evening all.

[BigMuddyrancher]

Whiteface I sold 23 hfrs to a fellow and the PB breeder that came with him who I do buy bulls from complimented me on the fact that all my hfrs looked the same. I try to buy a top end bull that fits my requirements and multiply him on my PB cows. Last summer I ran 14 bulls in one pasture and 11 were half brothers or the father of the half brothers. That makes consistancy. And I look for the most masculine bull for the most feminine daughters. What do you guys think?

[redcountry]

Had a visitor to the farm from "near saskatoon" as he was looking over my poor down east cattle he advised a change of bulls would do wonders for our calves. He would use a super Guppy! now I allways thought a guppy was a fish. anyone ever hear of this breed or better yet got a picture?

[grassfarmer]

Try www.mcquantock.com, the breeder i've heard of is Mac Creech out of Lloydminster, he holds the "Canada's bulls" sale

[whiteface]

Redcountry, a super guppy is a Gelbvieh, Simmental (usually red but can be black) composite bull, designed to shock a program into high gear. What I mean by that is if Gelbvieh cattle are considered good for maternal traits with some muscle included and the Simmental breed is generally known for growth with above average milking abilty, with maybe a little more bone and hopefully a muscle or two, what kind of a marketing scheme could be cooked up if we combined the two breeds and came up with the ultimate beef bull!!!!! Wow!
I'm not running down Mac Creech (M.C. Quantock out of Lloydminster) he has a very good operation with some very good bulls to offer anyone but keep in mind that any breeding program that attempts to manufacture a "great one" of any kind is invariably breeding (or attempting to breed) the best traits he can find while at the same time trying to correct the ones he doesn't. What will always happen is that while some or even many of your calves will look the way you want them too, you have, whether you realize it or not, bred opposite traits together leaving you with a genetically inconsistant product which could come out and "shock you" at any stage of your program. Fine and dandy if you sell all your calves. Look for a terminal bull (super guppy, Charolais, anything that looks like the kind of calves you want to produce, and yes Big Muddy, buy lots and lots of half brothers, consistancy when selling groups of calves to anyone, purebred or commercial, is everything...)
Here's the biggest problem.
When a bull buyer or even a purebred guy comes to your place to buy a "special one" for his herd (whether it's his cowherd or a show prospect for his children) he always loves a consistant cowherd and uniform calves or yearlings. But he won't buy from you if you only have one type because after all, he's looking for a "winner" something to "stand out" "improve his cow herd" "give a little extra to his calves" and can't find that animal in your consistant herd. Worse yet, maybe he doesn't quite like that "type" or even more clicky "that pedigree" and off he goes.
Sometimes there is a "great one" or a "special one or two" in your herd and a potential buyer with a good eye finds them. Now the seller is screwed because the potential buyer wants the "herd improver" out of your herd but understandably so, can usually only expect x amount of dollars for any given calf out of that cow or by that bull and unless he plans to get into the fickle and volitle business of trying to raise and market purebreds is really looking at a "breed changer" that should fetch big dollars (this would be a "standout" the "elite of a program"). Everybody wants them, only a very select few can justify or would even consider putting out a wad of cash for them. They go away pissed. "You want waaaay to much for your animals" "Can't make a decent working bull for the commercial man" "They were too fat anyway" "All they care about is the showring and winning..."
And there's no way in hell once they've seen your "great one(s) you have any hope of selling them "a less expensive (mediocre!) one!
I've been here done that so many times, it just depresses the hell out of me. I understand totally where the commercial guy is comeing from and on more than one occasion I have had a commercial man outbid the purebred guys, for that I am so appreciative and do not take for granted for one moment. And I do appreciate also, the validation some of you have shown on this thread, the tightrope I walk even on a good day, producing good cattle but still maintaining some different types and price ranges to suit different pocketbooks and needs of people. I've only got one type going to my sale on the 15th and I'm more than a little worried. Very consistant bunch, all by the same sire, but the biggest trouble with consistancy is suddenly you have a herd that can't excel at any particular trait. ie. you don't have an exceptional muscle calf or an exceptional birthweight calf or a particularly heavy milker and while everyone loves a uniform herd, we all have some things we would like to try and improve even in that same herd. I endorse consistancy very much but keep your options open and make sure you know what your goals are and where you can go to meet (purchase) your next goals, your next herd improvers. Make sure your supplyer really gets that. That's really what I meant when I said, ...trying to meet the needs of all our buyers and potential buyers and even trying to predict a trend or two, before they happen...
Sorry this is long guys, thanks for reading. Breeding and marketing is an absolute passion with me and I suppose given an opportunity to spout off, especially with my sale soon, I'm consumed with preaching some of the things that took a long time and thousands of dollars and not much help from my peers or competition, to learn. Have a good day all!

[cowman]

Well whiteface its a tough old business without a doubt! When you ring the bell it can be something else, but in the meantime somehow you have to live?
My old grandfather spent about twenty years before he hit the target but boy did it pay off! The sacrifices he made to get there were pretty tough. In todays market I doubt anyone could do what he did. Shortly after the war he sold one bull that bought 3/4 of pretty decent land. My own parents sold one bull that bought an excellent quarter! You just don't see those prices anymore!
Now mind you those were the days when this land wasn't worth a whole lot...but we still have it!
Recently the boy has bought 320 acres from an elderly grand uncle...$300K. When he told the old bachelor uncle that he wasn't sure he could get the money, the old boy said"Why do we need to involve them damned bankers? You just pay me $30K a year for ten years and if I croak we'll call it even!" My son thought this was a pretty good deal because my old uncle is 86! But then his old Dad lived to be 101 so he might have to pay! But whatever it was a sweet heart deal and it was only done that way because my uncle can't bare to see the land sold. And he has no one but us.
Sometimes family can be a real good thing?

[grassfarmer]

Red Country and Whiteface - the Super Guppies Creech sells are red Angus x Gelbvieh. I don't know if someone else is breeding Simx Gelbvieh and calling them the same. The F1 makes for impressive performance but do you want one for a bull? how good are the F2 sons or daughters?