FW Bulls

[greybeard]

I found the previous thread based on countryguys' search for "real" bulls left me with a lot of questions. Grassfarmer commented about" Show ring alley". This bring the question, are hobby "cattle enthusiasts" supplying our genetics? Last week-end I looked at CWA trying to decide which exhibitors were depending on their cattle to provide a living. It appeared to me that a few might make economic sense but most ( including some of the largest) are probably not using cattle as the main income source. I think grassfarmer already asked this , but can these producers supply commercial producers with "Real" bulls and as countryguy says : "what's the price"? If they are set up on the highest priced land in Canada they for sure aren't low cost producers.
It reminded me of going on a wine tour. Image is everything. Most good wines taste much the same to "Joe six pack" but a lot of money is spent to create an image.
I know we have some PB breeders on this site. What do you think?

[whiteface]

They've got to "work" first for me greybeard then as the old Clairol commercial used to put it I then turn them into the same "you, only better!"
All of us are capable of contributing something to society and yet many of us can clean up pretty darn nice if asked by our signifigant other to go to dinner, into town, the opera, whatever suits your fancy.
I don't endorse every purebred breeder out there as haveing cattle that "work first" as I demand of mine but I will say that I do trust my potential buyers to grill me hard on what their needs are and I will always do my best to provide them with the product they were always looking for. As I say to many of my buyers who have a twidge of doubt, "It doesn't keep me in business long if you come to my store looking for a high amp stereo and I send you home all excited but when you unwrap the box you find out it's a duck!"
I'm in the "high rent" district of Hiway # 2 and have had to supplement my cattle on occasion with "off farm" income much the same as any commercial cattleman might with grain or inheritances of his land or equipment but my product does speak for itself and have had more repeat buyers (yes, commercial guys) than returned cattle. My website is www.dynamiteacres.com, go have a look.
Howz that for a sales pitch? My production sale is in Olds on the 15th of December.

[whiteface]

We all hear you greybeard, and we all have our reasons for living where we do and having more by adding non farm income to our finacial situation.

But I think the most important thing in the purebred business is " Is it your life, or is it your career." Pretty hard to be a drugstore cowboy and fool the good old boys that make "cows their life" for long.

Cows are my life, other business is my sideline.

The purebred bull business is a hard shell to crack, not only on the sale side, but on the buyer side as well.
As much hypocracy from the buyer telling you what he wants and then buying those big fat show bulls with all the credits, perks, and bells and whistles.

It has taken a lot of years for this first generation purebred guy to build a market for easy fed, fit and sound, non foot trimmed, 16 to 1700 lbs, black bulls that (quess what) pump out just as good a calf as any type or breed of bovine in Canada.

I don't refuse to pump the barley into them to make them 1900 lbs at two, which we could, but economics is key to my bottom line. I keep a smaller cow that raises a calf even close to what a big cow can raise, because feed is over 75% of my herd expense.

I like to make some look fat and sassy to impress those who need that type of impressing, but for guys like you greybeard, I invite to my real world, if you can see beyond the non farm income we've sunk in to this place for reasons beyond cattle.

[InAHurry]

I, and probably many others, sent countryguy an email. Our web site pretty much explains our Black Angus commercial and purebred program. Three active generations today. In the past 40 yrs the family has exhibited at some shows. Looking back I've noticed that these shows all 'fit in ' as long as the kids could show in their junior division. It all started with the 4-H program and developed into the only "family holidays" we took. With the exception of the 4-H steers we didn't treat our show cattle much different than the rest of the herd, we knew they would be greener than the majority. It is exposure and what it is worth ?? It is up to you and I to ask the questions about what you see presented and how it got there. Now where do you want to go from here .... the best breeder(s) are the ones YOU choose to purchase from - they are offering what fits your plan and budget. Budget and plans can be switched around on any given day, just like the show ring judge's placing. As a breeder you are the winner if the buyer of your animal is happy and comes back for future purchases.

As for off-farm income, sometimes that is needed because diversification isn't feasable or is needed for someone beginning in the livestock industry. Our family is lucky in the respect that the last generation gave us a fair shake if we were interested. On that note each person has to contribute to make it a viable operation, the next generation has the potential for failure if their management decisions aren't sound. I have to think that there are persons that won't be in business (and deserve to be) after this crisis. I especially worry about the ones just starting or were having a rough go through no fault of their own.

For those breeders that fit into the wannabe's or need a tax write-off, I think I can say that the majority of cattleman are keen enough to know when an animal has the potential to live up to it's paper $ value. If they've got good functional cattle (and we keep envy out of the picture) they're adding to the success of the cattle industry. If the animal doesn't work I'm sure most sellers (at least the ones that want to remain in business) want to be the first ones to hear about it and will work with you to make it right.

I'm not sure if we can offer real cattleman, "real" bulls - that line is already used by one of the larger show breeders for their sale. Actually we don't have a sale slogan - 2004 was the 19th consecutive year our family has sold all the bulls by private treaty from the ranch. 2004 was the first year we didn't sell all the yrlg bulls - no thanks to BSE we've all become more ( to coin a phrase) enviromentally friendly - reusing, recycling and waiting for the "return" part of the market!

Now we invite you to view our site - sorry but the fall has been kinda nice and I haven't updated with the 2004 born bulls. Better yet, we're always home, stop by, look the cattle (and horses) over - questions? We'll do our best to give you an answer. www.southshadowangus.ca

[PureCountry]

Ya know I've sold bulls off the farm, I've showed all over Alberta, I've power-fitted cattle for people, and I've seen alot of cattle sold through high-profile sales. We all know damn well that if you want to win in the show ring, you have to keep them home all summer and give them some extra TLC. That's if you want to win.
If you want to show for the purpose showing was meant for - displaying the best of your program - then you take your best honest cattle, make some connections, and hopefully make some sales.
To me, buying a bull from the show circuit, is like picking up the hottest girl at the party. They look great when you get 'em, but just wait till all that glitter 'n glo comes off.

P.S. - The best slogan I've seen for a purebred outfit was a Tarentaise breeder in Saskatchewan. It read:
"We don't breed show cattle; we show breeding cattle."

[PureCountry]

Purecountry you're alive in cyberspace.

Damn nice site InAHurry, gotta say I need a bit of time to get where you've got.

Our website is www.westernrancher.com
This is a group of folks. Go to the Cattle Barn and click on CrossVenture Livestock.

[Willowcreek]

I didn't comment to the previous thread about angus bulls but thought I'd put my two bits in now. I can't believe what many of the registered angus and hereford breeders have done to the breeds. They have taken a good British breed and tried to make it a Charolais, Simmental, or Saler. If I wanted 1500-1800lb cows that have 100 lb birthweight calves I would go to one of those breeds. Many are taller than my saddle horse and eat twice as much. Most of these purebred breeders have put so much size and frame on their cattle that they don't even look angus or hereford- whether its for the showring or for the ability to have 800 lb weaning weights on paper- either way these don't work in real life.
I've found that to get the bulls I want to produce replacement heifers with real moderate frame and survivability I've had to go to some of the old commercial herds that have maintained the breeds while still adding in some select A.I. or bull battery breeding to add for carcass qualities without making them into overfed freaks. I always go look at the cow herd I buy my bulls from, and use that as my biggest decision maker.

[cswilson]

The last bull I bought I found him in a group of about 80-the guy hadn't sorted his sale bulls out yet but he wasn't putting this guy in sale because not enough frame. Turned out his mom,gramma and great gramma were all still in herd. None had ever had a calf over 75 lbs-they ultrasounded him for me and he had AAA marbling at 5 ml of BF. Ended up the breeder kept a half interest lol. We bred about 150 heifers and cows to him as a yearling last year things look good. I guess even a blind pig can find an acorn sometimes. Ohhh by the way he's ANGUS lol.

[whiteface]

I appreciate your two cents Willowcreek. I would really challenge you to find the most maternal bull I have in my pen. I kept him for me but I'd sure like to see if any potential bull buyer makes me an offer on him. Not picking on you specifically, but every year the bull buyers pick the biggest, fattest bulls (because they think they have the most "grow" and feed conversion for their calves and then want me to promise them that their replacement heifer calves will only grow into 1100-1300 lbs cows. Without contradicting anything I said above, my buyers dictate very hard the directions that I go in as well and while I have very good repeat commercial customers that will pay me a premium for what they want, most of the money that actually pays to keep me going comes from people that want "a little more" than just a nice bull out in their field. No going to extremes here that's why we coined the term "Cattle that WORK and WIN" It's sometimes very frusterating for both sides, the buyer and the seller.
So hey, back to my question, do you think you could find the bull that would make you the best daughters? Or would you just take my word for it, hypothetically if you were buying a bull from me? Or would you be one of those that insisted you wanted maternal and calving ease and then pick the "simmental or charolais" looking calves to take home?

[cowman]

whiteface: You understand the purebred business. Like any other business it is always give the customer what he wants! And since at most bull sales the winners have been fed hard and are big, then that is what you want to be selling! You might know what is right for the bull but you can't let common sense get in the way of the bank balance!
Just a fact of life. If you want to do well in the purebred game you've got to play the game...or else you will soon be out...unless you are independently wealthy!
An old breeder once told me: It's about 15% breeding, 25% feeding and 60% BS!!!

[cowman]

Is that old breeder an old breeder cowman? I mean, is he out of the business? I would say that his evaluation may fit the show breeder, however, the long term career cattleman must ad at least another 40% to that breeding selection tool (beef cattle not oxen), and take most of that BS and replace it with integrity. Or he will be an old breeder before his time.

[Willowcreek]

"So hey, back to my question, do you think you could find the bull that would make you the best daughters? Or would you just take my word for it, hypothetically if you were buying a bull from me? Or would you be one of those that insisted you wanted maternal and calving ease and then pick the "simmental or charolais" looking calves to take home? "

Whiteface- Actually that is what I have done for several years in picking bulls. I have a friend that I know his cows are the type that I want- he knows each cow better than I do, so I pretty much let him do the selection. He usually keeps about 20 bull calves a year for himself and to sell to a few neighbors- I just have him pick out one or two a year for me. Its worked great. One year I had a couple bulls get crippled during the breeding season- the only bull he had left was the ugliest little thing I ever saw. No ears, no tail- turned out to be one of the best I ever owned. Only problem I've seen is that he's having a harder time each year finding ABS bulls to use that don't throw several inches of frame.

[greybeard]

Sorry guys (and gals). I don’t think I appreciated the quality of the PB breeders on this board. I’m totally impressed. It goes a long way to answering my question on who we trust to look after our future genetics. I think some of my fear comes from hanging around the heavy horse barn. Taller is always better, and the big dollar buyers fly in.
The take home message seems to be look at the cows and don’t be distracted by “fed on” performance. One old boy told me that three times thru with bulls from one supplier and both herds are genetically the same.
I totally agree, as buyers we love that performance. It’s like the Holy Grail to some. They never stop looking. They think they have found it in one breed, and three years later a whole new set of bulls shows up. I guess we want the biggest calves at the market as a result of one bull purchase.
I buy pretty much as willow creek describes above. I just try to make sure they come from the top part of the index. I trust the breeder to select for udders, temperament, etc.
But back to my original question. Aren’t most hobby breeders also chasing that same “Holy Grail”? Fat sells.

[whiteface]

They certainly have to be "fat enough" in order to compete, whether it's the showring or the sale barn (commercial or purebred). If they're not, the potential buyers looking at the animals will assume (either consciously or unconsciously) that the animal in question was fed the same as the other animals in the barn and if it's not "fat enough" the potential buyer has some doubts surrounding the mother's milking ability or the question animals own feed performance. Not very often but on occasion or two (particularly with some breeders obsession that if good condition sells well, "fat" must sell that much better!!!) an overly plump animal gets fired to the back of the bus (end of his class or a waaay low seller at a sale) and the reason actually comes out as, "I think this animal is too "fat" (some judges will substitute the word fat for "coarse" "lacking femininity" "more brisket than I like" "not moving quite right" (how do YOU walk carrying an extra few hundred pounds!!!!!!!) but the answer is the same, they can't be TOOO fat or they'll get penalized and everyone who doesn't have the winning animal or the capacity to buy the top seller comes back with "is that bugger ever fat, there's no way it'll work, glad I don't (or didn't) own it. Lots of no fat animals don't work either. That's no better an excuse than "wow, look at the performance on this big (fat) bull, I just had to own him!!!!!
Sure we like big calves, but big calves grow into big cows that nobody seems to want. And incidentally, I remind a lot of "young" people (anyone younger than me in the tricky business of marketing) that size and fat alone won't get you the winner or high seller, they got to be good-looking and the right type too.
I appreciate your endorsement greybeard, in that you might have a little respect for the struggles that some of us go through in meeting the requests of all our buyers. Buyers by the way that are demanding and know what they want most of the time and if I don't have it, I know all too well that I may lose him permanently to one of my (I still respect you all!) competitors. There are lots out there and I sure do my best to listen to what you all want, provide and stand behind the product. Every once in a while, I also try to do a little gussing in advance of a trend. Thanks for reading, have a good evening all.

[BigMuddyrancher]

Whiteface I sold 23 hfrs to a fellow and the PB breeder that came with him who I do buy bulls from complimented me on the fact that all my hfrs looked the same. I try to buy a top end bull that fits my requirements and multiply him on my PB cows. Last summer I ran 14 bulls in one pasture and 11 were half brothers or the father of the half brothers. That makes consistancy. And I look for the most masculine bull for the most feminine daughters. What do you guys think?