FW Bulls

[redcountry]

Had a visitor to the farm from "near saskatoon" as he was looking over my poor down east cattle he advised a change of bulls would do wonders for our calves. He would use a super Guppy! now I allways thought a guppy was a fish. anyone ever hear of this breed or better yet got a picture?

[grassfarmer]

Try www.mcquantock.com, the breeder i've heard of is Mac Creech out of Lloydminster, he holds the "Canada's bulls" sale

[whiteface]

Redcountry, a super guppy is a Gelbvieh, Simmental (usually red but can be black) composite bull, designed to shock a program into high gear. What I mean by that is if Gelbvieh cattle are considered good for maternal traits with some muscle included and the Simmental breed is generally known for growth with above average milking abilty, with maybe a little more bone and hopefully a muscle or two, what kind of a marketing scheme could be cooked up if we combined the two breeds and came up with the ultimate beef bull!!!!! Wow!
I'm not running down Mac Creech (M.C. Quantock out of Lloydminster) he has a very good operation with some very good bulls to offer anyone but keep in mind that any breeding program that attempts to manufacture a "great one" of any kind is invariably breeding (or attempting to breed) the best traits he can find while at the same time trying to correct the ones he doesn't. What will always happen is that while some or even many of your calves will look the way you want them too, you have, whether you realize it or not, bred opposite traits together leaving you with a genetically inconsistant product which could come out and "shock you" at any stage of your program. Fine and dandy if you sell all your calves. Look for a terminal bull (super guppy, Charolais, anything that looks like the kind of calves you want to produce, and yes Big Muddy, buy lots and lots of half brothers, consistancy when selling groups of calves to anyone, purebred or commercial, is everything...)
Here's the biggest problem.
When a bull buyer or even a purebred guy comes to your place to buy a "special one" for his herd (whether it's his cowherd or a show prospect for his children) he always loves a consistant cowherd and uniform calves or yearlings. But he won't buy from you if you only have one type because after all, he's looking for a "winner" something to "stand out" "improve his cow herd" "give a little extra to his calves" and can't find that animal in your consistant herd. Worse yet, maybe he doesn't quite like that "type" or even more clicky "that pedigree" and off he goes.
Sometimes there is a "great one" or a "special one or two" in your herd and a potential buyer with a good eye finds them. Now the seller is screwed because the potential buyer wants the "herd improver" out of your herd but understandably so, can usually only expect x amount of dollars for any given calf out of that cow or by that bull and unless he plans to get into the fickle and volitle business of trying to raise and market purebreds is really looking at a "breed changer" that should fetch big dollars (this would be a "standout" the "elite of a program"). Everybody wants them, only a very select few can justify or would even consider putting out a wad of cash for them. They go away pissed. "You want waaaay to much for your animals" "Can't make a decent working bull for the commercial man" "They were too fat anyway" "All they care about is the showring and winning..."
And there's no way in hell once they've seen your "great one(s) you have any hope of selling them "a less expensive (mediocre!) one!
I've been here done that so many times, it just depresses the hell out of me. I understand totally where the commercial guy is comeing from and on more than one occasion I have had a commercial man outbid the purebred guys, for that I am so appreciative and do not take for granted for one moment. And I do appreciate also, the validation some of you have shown on this thread, the tightrope I walk even on a good day, producing good cattle but still maintaining some different types and price ranges to suit different pocketbooks and needs of people. I've only got one type going to my sale on the 15th and I'm more than a little worried. Very consistant bunch, all by the same sire, but the biggest trouble with consistancy is suddenly you have a herd that can't excel at any particular trait. ie. you don't have an exceptional muscle calf or an exceptional birthweight calf or a particularly heavy milker and while everyone loves a uniform herd, we all have some things we would like to try and improve even in that same herd. I endorse consistancy very much but keep your options open and make sure you know what your goals are and where you can go to meet (purchase) your next goals, your next herd improvers. Make sure your supplyer really gets that. That's really what I meant when I said, ...trying to meet the needs of all our buyers and potential buyers and even trying to predict a trend or two, before they happen...
Sorry this is long guys, thanks for reading. Breeding and marketing is an absolute passion with me and I suppose given an opportunity to spout off, especially with my sale soon, I'm consumed with preaching some of the things that took a long time and thousands of dollars and not much help from my peers or competition, to learn. Have a good day all!

[cowman]

Well whiteface its a tough old business without a doubt! When you ring the bell it can be something else, but in the meantime somehow you have to live?
My old grandfather spent about twenty years before he hit the target but boy did it pay off! The sacrifices he made to get there were pretty tough. In todays market I doubt anyone could do what he did. Shortly after the war he sold one bull that bought 3/4 of pretty decent land. My own parents sold one bull that bought an excellent quarter! You just don't see those prices anymore!
Now mind you those were the days when this land wasn't worth a whole lot...but we still have it!
Recently the boy has bought 320 acres from an elderly grand uncle...$300K. When he told the old bachelor uncle that he wasn't sure he could get the money, the old boy said"Why do we need to involve them damned bankers? You just pay me $30K a year for ten years and if I croak we'll call it even!" My son thought this was a pretty good deal because my old uncle is 86! But then his old Dad lived to be 101 so he might have to pay! But whatever it was a sweet heart deal and it was only done that way because my uncle can't bare to see the land sold. And he has no one but us.
Sometimes family can be a real good thing?

[grassfarmer]

Red Country and Whiteface - the Super Guppies Creech sells are red Angus x Gelbvieh. I don't know if someone else is breeding Simx Gelbvieh and calling them the same. The F1 makes for impressive performance but do you want one for a bull? how good are the F2 sons or daughters?

[whiteface]

Sorry about that misinformation I posted. Yeah, I did know that grassfarmer, must have had my head in the fog this morning and needed a coffee real bad. My apologies again, thanks for clearing that up. I did consider "fixing" my misprint after I had posted but then figured everyone had sort of had enough of me after that lengthy post and I decided I would humbly apologize only if anyone called me on my screw-up. Good job grassfarmer!
I for sure agree that one has to be careful on how "pure" the genetics will breed true going into the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generations but that is what makes this a challenging and exciting job to have! Good luck all!
Have a good evening and stay warm!

[greybeard]

I’m not so sure those bulls are F1 ore even F2. I only went there once, but at that time it looked like someone with a good cross-bred herd just didn’t nut a few calves. I think that was their first sale for that type of bull. They made us go around the corner to a separate sale ring. I think they were afraid of pissing off the purebred guys.
The buyers just ate them up. No pedigrees, no birth weights, no extra purebred work. Basically just well fed feedlot bulls. If I remember, prices were around $2800. It was easy to see the Creeches were blown away by the success on promised to have more for ext year. That was before they split up.
Do they supply any pedigree or EPD now?

[greybeard]

greybeard, a lot of red angus/simi bulls were marketed the same way by various producers. Some people were caught up in the red angus half of the bulls and didn't realize that the simi half might just throw more pounds at birth !
I always said we steered good cross bred calves here that were an equal to some of the hybrid bulls at some of the sales in the past few years.

[greybeard]

Don't most commecial herds out there consist of crossbred cattle?
Why would you want to let your bull supplier take most of the advantage of the obvious benefits of hybrid vigor?
I think that we can all agree that if we took our purebred herds and and picked a quality herd sire from a breed with complimentary growth or maternal traits, (whichever we feel we lack), we would grow some hellish calves.
The problem I see, and the problem that has shown up with most of what I call "homesteder breeds" is the predicablity of offspring. A friend of mine mentioned the "homesteader" term himself when describing his Charlais/ Saler halfblood bulls. These bulls were golden colored and thick and he did a good job selling them for 2 whole years. Will the super guppies, super baldies, etc. etc. be around for long, or will the unpredictability of these bulls lead to their early exit from the industry.

Not really looking for a fight, but somewhat amazed by the sales ability of the Creech boys, Soderglen's and so on. My hat is off, but questions remain.

[greybeard]

Hey Whiteface, there was a great board game out there that we used to play when we were kids. You had a bull named after this game that I saw as your premier sire about 6 or 7 years back.
Got any of that Monopoly blood still around?

[whiteface]

4 of the top cows in my herd are direct daughters of him, thanks for asking RP! We haven't heard too much from you lately, bin busy?

[cswilson]

In what ways are most purebred cattle so predictable-colour-pedigree-there's damn few breeders have a herd that's consistent for much more. Most commercial guys that raise bulls for their own use do it because of dissatisfaction with what the seedstock industry had to offer. The carcass deal really cracks me up-most of those guys haven't fed a steer without a halter on it. I look over our grid results and look at the cowherd that produces them and really don't see much in the couintless adds and sale catalogues that is going to help much.

[grassfarmer]

I agree with much of that cswilson, especially the bit about the purebred breeders not having fed a steer that didn't have a halter on it. I've commented before on here that it amazes me how many purebred herds expect to sell bulls having never owned a commercial cow herd or sold calves in their lives. No one could sucessfully do that in the UK - you wouldn't be taken seriously. On the other hand if you only sell calves at weaning the current auction system does not pay you on carcase results it pays you on look and weight of the calves. If that is what commercial cow herd owners are looking for some of the crossbred bulls will do well.
RPK, I had an experience with some calves off the bulls you mention. A batch of excellent commercial red angus cows I bought were bred Max - dispersal cows from a huge herd so the calves were sired in a multi bull setup. Calves were outstanding - I wish I had sold the lot at that stage, the heifers I kept can't live on my system. They have just fallen to pieces, open cows, late calvers, poor weaning weights and grown feet on young cows due to structural defects. I know they are meant to be maternal cattle - but "maternal" to me doesn't mean looking like a holstein. Consistently the worst cows in my herd yet their mothers have bred well to both a pure Simmental and even better to the Luing.
As you say these guys can sure sell bulls.

[grassfarmer]

And don't we all agree that the purebred breeders that can get the buyers to their sales are making money hand over fist.
Was the Calgary Bull Sale much different back in the good old days ? I can remember hearing about ranchers in BC travelling to AB for the Calgary Sale and being winded and dined for several days. For some it was their social life for the entire year !! ( Maybe all the socializing their consitutions could stand for an entire year !!).

[InAHurry]

For those interested, our family has run a commercial herd since the late 1940's and added/took over the registered herd (est. late '60s) when my husband's parents retired. We would like to hear from you regarding what you are looking for in a bull or replacement heifer and how you view one operation over another, private sales vs. public sales, all points relative to thoughts in the above thread or those not touched upon. Please contact us through our site www.southshadowangus.ca or email: dcdelorme@sasktel.net
We run black angus but would like to hear from you even if you use different breeds or are not currently looking for a bull. Unless you actively pursue a specific interest - we won't be "pushing a sale" at you at this time. We want to understand and further our service to today's cow/calf producer and would very much like to hear any and all your thoughts. All correspondence will be kept confidential. Thank you in advance for your imput.