FW Bulls

[cowman]

The fact of the matter is the purebred guy is just trying to supply what the market wants? If the bull buyers pay for size or color or pedigree or whatever, then that is what the breeder will try to supply?
I assume we all know that heifers don't need to be pushed hard if you want a decent long lasting cow? I doubt you would want to keep a heifer from a cow with bad feet, or a poor udder or whose Momma enjoyed jumping over the fence every chance she got? And yet, we continue to buy bulls on how they look at a sale or all clipped up in the breeders yard?
Who in their right mind wants to be messing around with bulls with poor feet,weak libidoes, broken penises?
Perhaps it is time we moved to a better system like they have in the hog industry? Get rid of the thousands of individual breeders and have one or two big outfits provide the genetics? Uniform genetics at a reasonable price for everyone? Then we wouldn't have this old purebred game that really doesn't do anything for the beef business! It is really hard to argue against this system when you see how it has revolutionized the hog industry.
Now I know I'll get roasted on this one and I also know that old purebred game can be a lot of fun! But this is supposed to be a business and we should be trying to provide a consistent product? Just like the poultry and hogs?

[Bruce14]

What you fail to mention Cownman is that those same companies basically control most of the the pork industry from the base genetics to the consumers plate so be very careful of what you wish for.

The purebred beef business may not be perfect but it is far better than the multi-nationals contolling the entire meat supply. Unforunately that may not be as fictional as some think.

[Bruce14]

I guess the next step is gettin these damn cows into controlled environment barns eh cowman.

The only way that Cargil and Tyson will be able to move ahead as fast in the area of production, like they have with the hogs and chickens, would be to say to hell with things like immunity, and hardiness and start working the Genetic modification angle.You tell us stories of how certain breeds fit certain parts of the Province, or country; should we disregard your own points?

Some of the stuff you talk about makes a lot of sense cowman, but have you been bit that hard by the purebred business that you have to talk this nonsense every time a purebred thread comes up?

[greybeard]

Beef is the only part of the meat complex where genetics are largely chosen on conformation. The pig and chicken guys don’t go down and look at the rooster or boar before choosing him. It’s strictly by the numbers.
Now, that’s not where I want to go. It was only a few years ago we had more than a few 40 sow barns in the area. Now even the huge “mega barns” are going broke. That one scares me. It seems all levels of agriculture have to have to strive for seemingly “quantum leaps” in efficiency. If you don’t step up, you are destined to working in town for an ever increasing part of your income.
I think Canada is the best place in the world for a young person starting with nothing to make a go of it. I know a very few who have done it. But we better not trust our fortunes to Cargill and Tysons . We have to get closer to the consumer, not further away.

[cowman]

Well, what can I say? I knew I was going to get roasted...
Maybe I look at the whole situation from too much of a packers view? How they would like to see it? I would assume they would like to see a very uniform product? And they are our customers...?
I do realize you can't raise the same kind of animal at Hanna or Manyberries that you can raise at Rocky Mountain House. And I will readily admit I don't have a solution for that.
And Randy I don't think I was ever "bit" by the purebred business. I only got kind of a cruddy deal once in my life! I was raised in that business on both sides of my pedigree! I think it was that darned old Alex Mills(my AI instructor) that got me thinking outside the box! He changed my thinking forever on crossbreeding!

[cowman]

Good one cowman, especially the part about the uniformity thing. You told grassfarmer on the Japanes hello thread to open his eyes to reality. What about opening yours? Do you think Cargil just throw those underweight AAA's in the garbage, or chucks the A1's in the dog food bowl? Those pirates are making good money on all sizes and types of carcasses, post and pre BSE. The only reason they talk of uniformity is for their damn factory line. They have lost us a lot of good customers over the years by not supplying the various cuts and grades that our (their) customers want. Consumers want choice, plain and simple.
I sure didn't think the pirates could pull any wool over your seasoned eyes cowman.

[cowman]

Well Randy somehow or other I have got both you and grassfarmer pissed off at me! And here I thought I was trying to be diplomatic!
Well whatever...
Everything sells? All cattle have a market at some level? We all raise what we think will do the best for us?
If I have somehow offended you for saying it how I see it...I apologize.
The bottom line is we all do it however works best for us...and we all see it...how we see it?
Personally I don't see Cargill/IBP as the boogeyman here! They are taking care of business as they see fit. As their shareholders would want them to? Is that wrong?

[smcgrath76]

This is pretty interesting thread.
I think the key is not so much what type of cattle / beef you raise, but rather knowing what you are raising so you can market it appropriately.
There are programs that demand high lean yield, low marbling, there are programs that demand natural, there are programs that demand high marbling. If you know the genetics and management that work best you can at least target your product into the most rewarding markets.

[cswilson]

I often if the purebred breeder is raising what the market wants or if he is raising what he likes and trying to B.S. his customers into believing he's got it. Really if you sell calves if you can be reasonably close to the 'flavor of the fall' you'll do o.k.It's sad to see commercial men who should know better taking advice from breeders who don't know much. My BIGGEST peeve though is sale catalogues that brag on about these cattle bred for grass-perfform on forages-yada yada yada and they calve in Feb. That means their breeding season is half over before there is much grass at all. I'd wager there aren't 10 percent of PB breeders putting any enviromental pressure on their cowherds. If you feed them so they are all fat how can you do any selection. I've got 120 first calf heifers here-some are damn skinny-some are damn fat-and in alot of cases no correelation to the calf they brought in. A pretty sage old rancher told me to always buy cattle from a place who runs them tougher than you do-I'm running out of places lol.

[whiteface]

I sure hope it's not sounding like some bull buyers are depending solely on the bull they purchase to wave any wands and produce anything other than what the commercial guys program is capable of. In other words, there has to be at least some responsibility on the part of the bull buyer himself (beit purebred or commercial) to be able to determine what his program needs, where to get the genetics that will provide you what you need and then to maintain your new purchase at a level resonable enough to meet your expectations. For crying out loud, if you know that you need something specific like a "grass performer" I hope to Christ you aren't buying from a "calving-in-February-outfit", furthermore, grassfarmer, you are all about grass-finished beef, I sure hope you aren't showing your face around any test centers or "performance data, and carcass tested" breeder sales. Don't dream for one second that ANY of the bulls advertised in this regard would be "grass tested" they aren't. Our beef industry itself is not pointed in that direction and no matter how solid a niche market you may have don't start getting bitter because everyone else chooses not to go that route. There is some truth to that, CSwilson, about buying from an operation that runs harder than you do, but I'm willing to bet (and you'll correct me if I'm wrong!!!!!) that you don't, simply because, time and time again, the bull buyers buy the biggest, fattest bulls in the pen because that's how they want their calves to look and if you suggest a bull that is more "maternal" or better calving ease or whatever and he's not as big and fat as the one you picked in the pen, the bull buyer is all out of sorts and goes home, sulking saying they just didn't have what he wanted. Sure they do, I PROMISE you they do, you just don't like what you have to give up to get what you think you need. Just have enough balls to say, THIS IS WHAT I NEED!!! and be willing to PAY FOR IT!!! when the hard-working bull supplier makes it for you. If you forever come up with an excuse as to why you won't buy what he tried so hard to make for you (and they DO by the way try very hard to produce what the buyer wants, even when the buyer frequently doesn't know himself!!!!) there is no incentive for the bull producer to make what you bitch about if someone more decisive, with more money says, I'll take this bull, even if it means a trade off or two. I didn't get to selling a lot of "show cattle" "on purpose", the most aggresive buyers dictate the direction that ANY seller markets too. Period.
If more commercial bull buyers demand what they call "real working traits" and PAY for it, trust me, you'll see a turn around like the weather in Alberta. As long as you guys keep picking big and fat and keep convincing yourself it's all performance until the calves start comeing and you're doing a cesarian every other day. Then change your mind saying I need calving ease at the 11th hour when you're more than half way across the river you don't have the option of changeing your mind at that point...and then you're standing in the bull pen again and loving performance....you forgot all about why you're even there...
This type of indecisiveness on bull buyers part drives me up the wall.
I have what you need. I ABSOLUTLY GUARANTEE IT !!! Do YOU know what you want???? Put your money where your mouth is! My sale is on the 15th in OLDS. Yeah, I know the excuse, " you can't make it..." not good enough, sales management takes bids, and they're pictured on my website, www.dynamiteacres.com and you all know how I operate and what I'm about by now. The bull you want and need is there. I'll even winter and deliver him...
I'll be shocked if I get real response on this, likely more flack, but let's just see...

[cswilson]

I have 'NEVER' bought a halter bull- I 'USED' to buy at test stations. I have found one purebred outfit that runs cattle the way I like and have purchased my last few bulls there. I also have to raise what my customers want and I hate to say it but polled hereford is the kiss of death on a set of baldy hfrs in my neck of the woods. As to buying more bulls I got a few of my little hayfed scrubs hanging around that will go out and breed a bunch of cows next year and for alot of years after that.

[cswilson]

I have sold a lot of bulls over the years, mainly to commercial cattlemen, the majority of whom were repeat customers.
When I look for a bull for my own herd, I like to find a breeder that I can talk to, one that isn't too busy promoting his cattle to 'fancy buyers' to talk to me either at his sale or at a show somewhere.
I try and relate the asking price to what I am getting in the genetics I want. If I don't think I am getting the best bang for my buck, I'll look elsewhere for the same genetics.
I don't agree that every bull seller will always have exactly what I want in a bull.

It is all politics, and salesmanship !!!

[grassfarmer]

Not quite sure what I'm being accused of Whiteface - Bitter about what? The only negative thing I said in this thread was about some Max sired calves I reared - they haven't performed period.
Let me clarify I do two things: run a cowherd in conditions I imagine are close to what cswilson does and also fatten a few yearlings on grass to direct market.
I have not bought bulls to sire the grass fattening cattle because I already have the breed that suits it - Luing. The Max females I mentioned failed to perform in their duty of rearing calves under commercial conditions. Are you suggesting that there are guys selling maternal breed bulls in Alberta that will not produce cows that can live on grass in the summer? Maybe Randy will buy some for the climate controlled cow barn he's telling Cowman about ;O)

[whiteface]

You're not under open attack from me grassfarmer, more likely it was me over reacting and grouping you into one of those complaining bull-buyers-that-cannot-be-pleased-at-all categories. And many of them still can't and refuse to look after what they buy and still make it the purebred guys fault but this kind of buyer would make an excuse for anything. I'm not afraid of insulting this type, they don't do you any favors as a buyer. It wasn't a personal attack on you, grassfarmer. I appreciate your niche market and that you found a breed very well suited for what you want, this is more the point I was trying to make...know what your needs are and you definatly do. I was more trying to make the point that you likely wouldn't shop out of a test center based on the program that you have and the goals you seek to achieve and so I don't think you should either, that would make you a hypocrite, at least that's what I see. I meant to single you out more as one of the few that knew what you were doing rather than not. I'm aware I accused you of being bitter, can't think off the top of my head the exact phrase that would have prompted that comment out of me. I'll find it if you want but I'm not really a scorekeeper so let me bow out of an insensitive remark gracefully and on to the next issue. By the way, my respect for you is heightend that you have enough poise to make me back up what I say without being petty about it. You've kept me honest before also...
and thanks, that's what keeps me sharp and one of the best in the business!

[cowman]

Whiteface: I wonder why you have chosen to raise polled herefords? I mean lets face it there are breeds out there that are more in demand by the commercial cattleman?
Like cswilson says herfords are the "kiss of death" in a commercial herd in most cases. Whether right or wrong the mainstream feedlot buyers just don't want them.
It is always amazing to me just how many of our breeders of Simmental, Charlais and Angus were once Hereford and Shorthorn breeders! I suppose you could say they adapted to the market and provided what the commercial market demanded?