Santa came!

[grassfarmer]

Santa came a day early bringing the calf setaside cheque - seems it's $200 short though - maybe he needed it to buy hay for the reindeer. Hope everyone else is getting them as well.

[rkaiser]

Mine came in the form of a letter informing me of problems. Said that the number of cows did not match the AMMATP form. Had to look that one up. It was the number of over thirty month animals in my herd. This was the cull cow program. Guess what,,,,, my bred heifers were under thirty months at that time. After I asked the little gov. ab. employee, if he was going to question every applicant this way, and passing along a few other choice words, I realized that my cheque would be a month or so coming yet.

[rkaiser]

I'm still waiting for my 2003 CAIS money !!!!

[grassfarmer]

Yeah, so am I Emrald. We'll take the money but I don't like to be dependant on handouts. Feels like you are on welfare yet you are working full time.

[grassfarmer]

Isn't that a fact grassfarmer. But I really don't think a person should feel that way, much of what has happened in our industry over the past couple of years has been beyond our control.

All the best for the holiday season.

[grassfarmer]

Yes and no Emrald, it's not been our fault what has happened but we are involved. I hate subsidized agriculture - moved from Europe to get away from it and now we have it here. Same deal over there - initially subsidies to encourage production to feed a hungry continent post WW2 but nothing to do with that now. The fault in my mind lies clearly at the feet of the transnational corporations that control global trade. With their total monopoly control over input and product prices they force farmers to produce at below the cost of production knowing that Governments will keep farmers on welfare. It is all about the corporations getting their inputs for substantially less than they can afford to pay for them. We are pawns in this game and need to smarten up and realise the position we are in. Farmers of the world should unite and reverse these trends - tall order I know.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer, there aren't too many subsidies that are really helping the livestock industry at this time.The set aside program will benefit some,as will CAIS, but I honestly don't know many people that have gotten any significant payment under the CAIS program, yet they have had increased costs due to the accounting information that was necessary to enroll in the first place. I think that sky rocketting input costs could be kept under control agriculture would be in a much better position economically.
The rising cost of utilities, fertilizers etc. has just gotten out of control. Not too many people that aren't involved in agriculture realize just what an impact these increased costs have had on those of us who are trying to make a living in the ag industry.

[grassfarmer]

I'm constantly reminded of problems in the agri-food chain highlighted by the National Farmers Union.
"At one end of the chain are the fuel, oil and natural gas companies. The next link up are the fertiliser companies. Next the chemical and seed companies, machinery companies and banks. In the middle sits the farmer. Continuing down the chain we find grain companies, railways, packers, processors and retailers. Other than the farmer link every other link in the chain is dominated by between two and ten multi-million dollar transnational corporations."
No wonder we are in the mess we are - and yet even here on Agriville we have people that don't see or believe this analysis. Still thinking that all is well and if we are good enough businessmen we can out-perform our neighbour and return to a highly profitable operation once our neighbour bites the dust. Unfortunately there are too many things conspiring against individual farmers for this dreamed of scenario to unfold.

[WRAPper]

Grassfarmer
In reference to your last post I often use a joke as a way to illustrate the attitude of a lot of farmers in Alberta when I'm doing various talks and presentations. The joke is thus . One day a couple of friends are walking through the forest when they come face to face with an enormous grizzly, the grizzly takes one look and rears up and it is obvious it is going to charge, the one person looks over at the friend and the friend is down on one knee tightening up the laces on his shoes, the other friend says, "What are you doing? You can't out run a grizzly! "The friend looks up and says' ," I don't have to out run the bear I just have to out run you."

That to me really reflects how alot of producers feel they think if they can out last the neighbors they'll be able to survive they don't understand the truth that a 10000 acre farm is a insignificant speck in the big picture. And things are changing around them that they are having zero influence on.
Do the people that post on here back up their words about working together and striving to represent the greater interests of producers to policy makers by belonging to groups like the NFU or Wild Rose Agricultural Producers in Alberta. Or do they give the principals of working together for the greater good lip service and let others spent the time and money to keep these organizations struggling along without any true strentgh both financially or in numbers to do any of the things that they should and could be doing.
I've seen the membership numbers of these farm groups and it is embarrassing compared to what the numbers are in other provinces.
If you want to know why the UPA gets things done in Quebec it's because despite the differing opnions that they have among the different producers they know that they need groups like this to be strong. Not so in Alberta we let the check off groups stay divided and not work together on much of anything for the good of the whole industry so the governments at all levels can point to lack of consensus in the industry in Alberta as a way to do what they feel serves their purposes more than what would be best for Alberta agriculture as a whole. A yearly membership in Wild Rose Agricultural producers is less than what 2 months of Cable TV, it's what's more important to you. If it's TV you are already finished and just won't admit it to yourself.

[rkaiser]

Hey there WRAPper. Took a look at your Wild Rose web site. The thing I wonder is, how can a group be so diverse and hope to make any headway with the legislaters of this province or country.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the actions of any group if it means helping to change the trend to fewer family farms in this country. I would likely buy a membership with your group if I were not attempting to make a difference with my forced membership with ABP/CCA, and my voluntary role with BIG C.

Big C has focused on very few goals and has, I believe, made remarkabe headway with more to come.

Is there any interest in a resolution on the floor of your meeting to either fund or assist funding Canadian owned packing facilities through a mandatory levy which in turn becomes a share?

Pretty much got laughed out by the ABP/CCA heirarchy either because it was not their idea first, or they never really spent the time to look at it.
I noticed that the new ABP leader, and man who called our concept socialism at his hoe down, is going to speak at your conference. Will we all cheer when ABP/CCA comes up with another bailout program for the government to back, and drive a wider wedge between taxpayers of this country and ranchers.

Hell I think BIG C would even let Wild Rose take this concept over if they think they could push the idea harder and faster than we have. No great need for recognition on our parts, simply trying to show an alternative that could help the beef industry in a number of different ways.

[WRAPper]

Mr. Kaiser
Really covering a diverse "Whole Industry" perview gives WRAP the ability to maintain a fairly resonable and objective ability to attract members from the entire spectrum of producers and thusly represent the overall avergae of the province much better than specific industry groups, especially when it comes to whole farm issues. ie environment, pesticide regulations, federal provincial safety net agreements. Wild Rose is not just interested in a specific sectors or group within a sectors survival but rather a dynamic and well positioned industry as a whole. In order for all of us in the industry to be profitable we need a diverse range of products and commodities all interacting and communicating. And then those viewpoints have to be taken forward as a relection of a democratically arrived at position reflecting the wishes or opinions of the industry as a whole. That gets better reaction from policy makers than 50 different groups with 50 different opinions.
As far as a resolution for a levy for a producer owned industry in Alberta it would have to come from the regional meetings all of which have been held I haven't seen the resolutions to presented on the 6th of January as of yet so I couldn't tell you if there is or not.
However I can tell you that if there is one it will be debated and the members present at the meeting on the 6th will decide the position that would be adopted as WRAPs position on such a levy. Democracy and involvement, much like any board or organization the ones that are involved can make a great difference,and the positions of organizations and boards tend to reflect the veiwpoints of those that can either afford the time or understand that they have to spend the time.
As far as you buying a membership thats a decision you have to make I invite you to come to the seminar and talk to some of the directors and members and see if they are a gruop you would like to be asssociated with. Then make you're own decisions. And take note of the speakers that want to come and talk, and the issues they cover that should give you a decent reflection of what policy makers think of this group already. And the type of issues that we need a group of this type for. Last I heard there were still a few spots for the seminar on the 5th.

[rkaiser]

You're probably right about the diversity thing WRAPper, one sector does need the other to survive, and we can't be continually trying to outrun each other as your joke eluded to earlier.

I like the way you have linked democracy and involvement to your explaination of most organizations. Too bad our ABP/CCA could not admit to this reality. Instead they bugle about the fact that, in Alberta ABP represents 35000 producers. B.S. Involvement is as key to ABP as democracy. When less than 8% of the producers of Alberta vote in the elections, and those voters who do not agree with policy get laughed out when the good old boys have the stage, I would have to once again say BS to representation by population.

But the government recognises them as the voice, and we must accept that. Funny how even political governing democracies usually have an oppostion. Not so with ABP/CCA. If you're not with em, your part of the axis of evil.

Sorry for the rant W****r. And sorry but I cannot take any more time for another group away from my cattle. You probably wouldn't want me around anyway as my goals are pro family farm and anti multinational. I'd rather eat $&^%
than use chemicals and fertilizer on my land, and vow to never sell my cattle to Cargil and Tyson again. These are not decisions based on financial reasoning, although it's been working most of my life, but decisions based on a moral and humanist attitude whereby I beleive even small less productive farms have something to give this world we live in.

[grassfarmer]

Good points from both of you - I agree that one overall voice representing the huge majority of family farms would be ideal. But how do we get there? Wild Rose purports to champion the family farm, as does the NFU but the reality is these are both tiny groups of bright, vocal individuals - no different to BIG-C or many of the other small producer groups. The problem lies not with those of us involved in organisations but rather those that take no part in any organisation. The people passionate about our farming industry all push as hard as we can in our own "favourite" organisations but realistically there is probably too much history behind the different groups for them all to merge into one.
I assume the majority of family farmers in Western Canada don't support any group. Perhaps that is where we should start? try to get every producer interested and working for some change - whether it be NFU, WRAP, BIG-C even ABP - perhaps that should be our New Year resolution?

[cowman]

Excuse my ignorance of what Wild Rose basically stands for, and give everyone here a quick run down on what their policies stand for? Were they the old Unifarm organization?
It seems to me when I was a kid growing up farmers were a lot more involved in various groups? I know my Dad used to go to Alberta Wheat pool meetings and was a lifetime member of the Western Stockgrowers. I wonder why we basically have little use for most organizations today?
I kind of like the ideas of BIG C and how they seem to be a grassroots organization, rather than an "old boys club" where the same old guys preach to the faithful. I do believe they are stirring the pot and getting some attention. I suspect Ostercamp has a pretty realistic down to earth evaluation of the whole situation. I also support the idea of a producer funded cow plant through a levy...with some reservations! It is a necessity to bring some sanity and fairness back into the marketplace, but I truly believe that once that is accomplished it should be sold to a private concern.
I believe that any company that is run by "committee" or "government" or whatever, will eventually turn out to be nothing more than a dog...good for the boys running the show...not so good for the people paying the bills. With a private owner the incentive is there to make a buck and not just freeload off the system. I still believe in free enterprize and individual incentive.

[WRAPper]

Good Morning a reply to cowman and a morning rant before I go feed cows and haul wheat for the day. The best place for info on Wild Rose is on WRAP's web site wrap.ab.ca, they are a continuation of Unifarm to a degree. If you have more question or want to talk to someone there call them the number is 1-888-616-6530. Something I believe strongly that not enough people admit to themselves is is that a organization must reflect the members that it has and if you don't like what a group is doing the best way to change the policies and direction is to get involved and working to change them but that takes a lot of hard work,strong will, heartache and often abuse(of yourself).
Back many years ago there was the western stock growers and Unifarm both powerful groups and rather than the members working together and changing the groups to reflect the changing face of agriculture we've taking the easy way out which is the wrong way. So now we have between 50-100 groups representing different segments issues and policies.
A group should represent the democractic will of the members and all members should accept that and work within the group, a group should not represent policies blindly and its vision should be ever changing to reflect the changing nature of both the industry and what the majority of the members want the industry to be.
If back in the day enough members of the western stockgrowers then or now ABP had wanted beef to go to supply mangement(they had the chance) thats the way the industry should go(not that I would support that) If enough members of Unifarm in the day had wanted the CWB monopoly taken away that should have been the policy.
After being involved in some of the commodity groups the biggest thing I have come away with is the groups are just a reflection of the involved members not always the ones who aren't members or involved in the organization.
Its truly no different than the local lions club do you think they are putting their efforts into projects that they should -are you a member and do you take a leadership role on those organizations? same thing. But in order to be chosen to leadership of these groups enough members or people that support you must be mebers and involved too.. don't go off and start another group if the lions aren't building a ball diamond like you think they should join the lions and have the people that agree with you be members too. simple but we just don't have thick enough skins to do it(or enough sense). Welcome to the independant operators that we as producers are, our ideas keep our own operations together and we feel pretty disgusted when those other dumb operators don't see our brilliance. We just choose to forget that they all have operations too and likely have thoughts of their own and they probably work too. It's not always the loudest voice leading the way but the one that makes the most sense to the most people(or members in this case)
RP keep selling and refining and listening to people when they talk rationally to you about the BIG -C proposal. I tend to agree with Cowman the thought of another wheat pool (cow pool?) makes me nervous for exactly the reasons stated by cowman. I agree fully we need more capacity and WRAP will be presenting thoughts on acheiving this to Doug Horner in a meeting on the 5th and again hopefully when he speaks to the seminar in Nisku on the 6th. There is nothing simple about getting us out of the mess we are in we let it happen slowly and quietly over 25 years we are not going to solve it I'm afraid in 12 months if we try too we better accept there is going to be some big mistkes and some casulties (though in war there is the term acceptable losses)
Have a great day all.