New border collie

[intr3est]

Bought a pup for my cousin,(wedding gift) was wondering if anybody had any further advice. It's a strong-headed dog, just 1 1/2 years old, probably was trained a little young. From a reputable breeder from England, with some of the best pedigree around. After they took him home, 10 months before training, they probably treated him to much like "one of the family", but after training he seems to forget what he learnt. I have heard that you have to get tough with these little varmints. He seems to forget come by and away commands, not afraid of the cows though, right in there, not afraid to get teeth kicked out or anything. I have heard that one way to slow him down would be to put one of his front legs through his collar. Anybody have any experience with this?

[grassfarmer]

Border collies are very senstive and usually remember what they are tought, plus their natural instincts kick in when they are around stock.
My old collie has always known exactly what was expected of her and has only needed to be disciplined half a dozen times in her life, usually for being a bit over agressive with the cattle. They need consistent commands and also need to be corrected at once if they disobey. They are a super intelligent dog and one of my favorites. Very faithful and will do anything to please their master.

[grassfarmer]

My comment to anyone considering
"needing to get tough with these little varmints" is maybe you aren't a fit owner of a Border Collie.
What has the dog done wrong? been subjected to inconsistant treatment - trained a bit, then allowed to forget it, then expected to pick up where he left off. Sounds like the owners need training before starting on the dog.

[intr3est]

I think the mistake they made was to try to make him two things, a pet and a work dog. Don't think this makes them unfit. They are just having a little trouble showing him who is the human and who is the dog. When I said get tough I did not mean "beat" Hope that wasn't the idea that got across. But we all know that these borders are highly intelligent dogs and sometimes hard to keep focused when young. Maybe much like a child.

[intr3est]

Grassfarmer, I had a feeling you might have some experience with borders and I was hoping you might have some Constructive critism?

[kato]

Border collie = smart dog. Very smart dog.

I don't own a border collie, (I own a German Shepherd), but did just finish several tours in obedience school, and have seen no end of disobedient dogs at work.

I don't think the problem is the dog's cattle herding skills and training. It's probably more of a 'who's in charge' sort of issue. Sounds like he's doing what HE thinks is right, and doesn't look up to whoever is giving the orders.

This can be a big issue with a German Shepherd, which is why we went to school. They taught us some very basic things to do in order to set the 'pack order' up that should help your dog too. The dog needs to know that you are the leader of the pack, not him. You don't have to get mean with him either, to make that happen.

It starts with what they call a 'long down'. This is very simple, but also boring. You sit on the ground (fun when it's cold out, but you could do it in the barn if he's not allowed in the house) You take the dog by the collar, and push on his back and make him lay down beside you. Don't say anything, don't praise, just put him on the ground. Make him stay there for a half an hour. If he gets up, put him back down. The idea is that you are above him, and he has to listen to you. After a week or so of this, you can already see a difference. It gets extended into longer times, and having more distance between you over time. The basic idea is that you are speaking 'dog' to him, and that you are the pack leader. He will start to respect you and look to you for direction.

It wouldn't hurt to go back to basics, put him on a leash and go for walks. He needs to learn to pay attention to you before anything else. Make him walk nice beside you, sit when you stop, and especially LOOK at you.

They taught us a really cool trick to get them to do that. You sit the dog down in front of you and say 'watch', or 'look', or something like that, and as soon as the dog looks you in the eye, you give him a treat. Hold the treat up near your face so he looks that way. After a while, you can say that word from way across the yard, and he will look right at you. It's amazing. Even my dog, who tends to shut off her ears when she gets excited, will stop and look when I say that magic word.

I got a little long winded on this, but hope it helps. Maybe there are some Border Collie people here who have more ideas to add. We made a pretty decent cattle dog out of our Shepherd, but it's a different style of herding.

Sounds like you've got a really smart dog on your hands, and it's probably going to keep you on your toes staying ahead of him.

[grassfarmer]

intr3est, I grew up with border collies and run my own ones since I was 15. I may have "way out" views on them compared to many breeders and am not a good trainer. I personally think the worst thing that ever happened to them was the TV show "one man and his dog" - the televised sheep dog trials. I think these are wasting good dogs - now everyone is selecting for creepers (ones like robots that only move a few yards left or right to a certain whistle.) The beauty of a border collie is its natural intelligence not taught human tricks - if you get a good dog you have very little to teach it - they come pre-programmed.
I prefer to pick a sharp pup and then once it's learnt the basic commands (sit,stay,heel,down)take it with me to stock at every opportunity. They soon learn what job I'm going to - where the cows are being moved to etc. I only worked sheep with them in Scotland although some people use them on cattle.
I don't give them too many commands but was constantly calling them to ease up on forcing sheep/cows too hard through a gate - but if they don't have that much force they are useless. Try moving 400 fresh weaned lambs across an open field away from their mothers with two dogs - you need power and stamina.
Here I have a border x blue heeler which has about half the brains of a collie but certainly likes chewing the bulls heels, we manage overall.
I should add my experiences have all been in field conditions - that is to say limited acreages. If you work on open ground where the stock could run 3 or 4 miles away if the dog got lazy on it's outrun and cut in short you need a different type of training. Moving cows here I always work from behind the cows with the dog running flanks as needed - I don't see any need for him to "come bye" while I stand watching him do the work.
I wouldn't ever buy a dog someone else has trained but that's personal preference. We had an old retired shepherd worked for us for a while and I learnt a lot from him. He worked open hills all his life but took up trialling in his latter years. He was in the Scottish team and had the Scottish champion dog one year but the dogs wouldn't work for me - they were just too smart in the hands of a novice.
This has been a long story - as I said you probably won't want advice from someone who doesn't train dogs the accepted way.

[Cattleman]

Grassfarmer, some of your comments remind me of a conversation I had with one trainer. He said there are many people out there that are very poor trainers, and ruin good dogs, that they eventually get rid of. He said, it is a good thing god gave man the guns and not the dogs!! lol

[WoolyBear]

The thing that we learned first about border collies......... they know how to work livestock, We have to learn to use them properly. They are herding dogs, and I know on our farm before them, we would "drive" cattle. So naturally when we are acustom to bringing up the rear of the herd, and a border collie wants to bring them you "human", theres going to be SOME conflicts. So think of where you want the animals, and go and stand in the gate, etc, then get the dog to go out and do the "leg work". They do need to know who's boss, and I don't claim to know anything about training.......... So I appreciate everything that I've been reading on this thread.