Cows are down again?!!!

[blackjack]

...willowcreek you don't ever give the whole story...your probably right about the corps...but governments look at the corps to hire the working class...I think your smart enough understand that...

P.S. ...willowcreek what ranchers in the world get more income than the americans...

[cowman]

Willowcreek: I find it sort of sad that the American cattleman considers it "THE US BEEF INDUSTRY" instead of the way it was before. My grandfather sold a ton of bulls to Americans and I used to use all kinds of semen from ABS. Just about all the cattle that came into Alberta originally came out of the States...and a lot of the cowmen. When I was a small boy there was a really old fellow who used to hang around my grandfathers place who came up with a herd from Colorado as a young man. His name was Doc Pruitt and they lost the herd in the big die of 1907!
Do you honestly believe we can take close to 100 years of history together and throw in in the trash can?... over four cows?
I'm not sure where you live? But whether it's Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado or whatever...you sure as hell ain't no different than any cowman here in Alberta, Saskatchewan, or Manitoba!
We all have the same concerns for our animals. You are us, and we are you? Don't give us this crap about an "AMERICAN" industry.

[farmers_son]

I should add I believe Willowcreek is accurately reflecting the views of the majority of U.S. cattlemen. I for one have always appreciated Willowcreek's candor and insight of the U.S. side of things. We may find this issue gets kind of emotional as we approach March 7, only 30 days away.

[Willowcreek]

cowman- but we live in two entire different countries...Different rules, laws, ways of thinking...This came to light quite clearly when Chretien snubbed the US and sided with the Europeans, Chiraque and Germany in the UN... We are not equal on most things..Whether it be money, taxes, business and land laws, whatever-- Then a term that was never heard of before BSE- "North American cattle industry" is shoved down our throats in an attempt to reopen the border...Most Canadians I know are proud to be Canadian and proud of their Canadian beef- altho Canadian beef has lost all its identity by being passed off for years with a USDA stamp as a US product. Most don't want to belong to the United States of North America.

We had cattle 100 years ago come to Montana from Texas and Mexico- does that mean we no longer have a Montana cattle industry and have a TexMex cattle industry?

[Willowcreek]

cakadu- here is the reason most in the states want all cattle permanently hot branded with CAN and heifers spayed.......

'Illegal trade' in cow passports or records!

All cattle destined for the food chain must have a passport
Cattle passports intended to ensure the origin and safety of beef are being bought and sold on the black market, say trading standards officers.
The passports were introduced to stop the spread of BSE and foot-and-mouth disease, and every British cow bound for the food chain must have one.

But trading standards officers found them being traded for up to £50, BBC Radio 4's Farming Today has learned.

A Lancashire farmer was arrested and freed on bail after an investigation.

Paperwork was removed from the man's farm, following the investigation into the movement of hundreds of animals.

'Inadequate'

Trading Standards spokesman Derek Smith said: "This could have serious consequences in terms of confidence in the British meat industry.

"Most farmers adhere to the rules and know they are there to restrict potential diseases.

"What we are looking at is probably the biggest breach of the rules seen in Britain."

Government rural advisor Lord Haskins said the discovery highlighted the inadequacy of the UK's food tracing system.

He also questioned whether the passport scheme was worth keeping.

All of the database systems and PREMISES systems have big holes in them and the cheating owners and packers are jepordizing safe food in the beef industry worldwide.

[WoolyBear]

Once that beef with a pulse crosses the 49th, what goes on with the feedlot owners, and the packers is entirely out of the control of Canadians. Some of the comments that I've read in disbelief on Ranchers.net leads me to believe that most of the Canadian ID tags are remove long before they are ever ready for the slaughter plant. Export permits generally don't move with the animals as they should be when they are resold again and again.

Can we count on the Americans in following the SAME rules when they start exporting anaplasmotic and Red/white and Bluetongue animals to the American owned feedlots in Canada? Not likely.........

[cowman]

Willow creek: I don't know where you are coming from but you certainly must know that the " cattle people" in Canada were never in favor of "Jean Chretien"! or any of his policies!
Just like you probably personally weren't too keen on Dirty Little Billy?
If you have read these threads enough, you will know I don't blame R-CALF for wanting to protect their markets? Hell I don't blame the American cattleman ....but don't ever delude yourself that some kind of BS line on a map makes me or you one bit different! We are one industry...we are one country! You might not buy that...but your grandchildren will! My own personal thoughts and opinions.

[cakadu]

I'll ask it again, if heifers are going into the feeder system and they are being put in with a bunch of steers, in their own separate pens, then what is the purpose of having the heifers spayed? Who don't you trust to play by the rules? If the heifer is in the feeder system, and she has to be under 30 months of age, what and who is there to fear?

Woolybear is right, once they are on the other side of the border, then they are out of our control.

We as Canadians keep bending over further and further - one day we are going to break. It has been mentioned before - one day the Americans are going to find their own home grown cases, then what are you going to do?

[intr3est]

Cakadu, A little change of subject, but I was reading the other day that when the US has an "inconclusive" test result, that the only lab that gets to retest is their own! For full transparency, should there not be a "global" lab that confirms results?

[blackjack]

...cakadu...purposely no more than a trade restriction...it is there way of saying they don't want our cattle in their breeding herds...but they're willing to trade us ana and blue tongue which we all know are contagious...

[grassfarmer]

Cakadu, The danger is obvious on heifers - US ranchers or dealers will cheat the system and pull them out of the feedlot if there is a dollar to be made selling them as bred heifers. No different to the Alberta rogues that did the same thing with US heifers on feed prior to BSE. Unfortunately there are too many "cowboys" in the cattle business (pun intended) worldwide.

Willowcreek, it's funny you picked up that little tidbit from the UK news. That is the first such case in the 9 years of the passport system. You should be aware there is a hidden agenda there of running down the ag sector - this is just another case of the Government taking great joy in prosecuting one cheat and hinting the whole industry is cheating - it isn't. I could give you some stories of the passport agency persecuting farmers for cheating that were subsequently proven to be mistakes made by the agency.

The passport system is still light years ahead of the Canadian system and even further ahead of the (non-existant)US system.

[Willowcreek]

Grassfarmer- You said it about persons pulling out heifers-- If there is a buck to be made, someone will discover it and find the way around the system to do it. There are shady operaters on both sides of the border. I think what USDA and NCBA are looking at with the branding and spaying is removing some of the opportunities to do this..

Like I said earlier I personally don't think USDA will buy on to all these NCBA recommendations, but this is one they have already proposed. I think it and the no OTM cattle or beef will surely be enacted. The others I'm not sure about...NCBA has called on the USDA to quit using grade stamps on imported beef for years- but this time they went one step further and said no USDA markings at all which is essentially a form of COOL. That with the big push for MCOOL from R-CALF and the increasing request for it from consumer groups may slip that one thru Congress. With the health question tied to COOL it puts a lot more pressure on Congress to push it thru.. It will definitely be an interesting next month....There are a lot of poltical markers being called in, probably on both sides of the border..

[cakadu]

Okay, you've stated the obvious -- being that there would be cheats; however, you've also stated that it is in the few, not the many.

Who is supposed to pay for this spaying? Generally, the customer pays for what they want and if the rule comes back that they need to be spayed, it is coming at the request of the customer, is it not?

I'm going to get a little bold here and ask that whether these rules be an attempt at trade distortion or an attempt to circumvent cheats, what would happen if they were put into place?

Eventually, the U.S. is going to find and confirm one or more BSE cases. It's not a matter of if, it will be when they find one. The outcome of finding one (and others have suggested this too) is that the US will have painted themselves into a corner and it will come back and bite them - HARD.

Sad fact is we need them far more than they need us - for now.

[InAHurry]

Just wanted to ask some questions and give my limited opinion.

One, if heifers are spayed what is the concern over fetal bovine serum? With the ovaries removed estrous ceases, and the qualities/basic substance of the serum is no longer there. FBS is used as a culture base or have I misunderstood the realtionship between spaying and fetal bovine serum?

Two - " Movement of Canadian cattle into the United States must be managed to minimize market disruptions."
How is/what amount of consumer demand, supply, weather conditions, and operating costs etc will effect the US livestock markets. In other words Canadian imports will be the first (and in some minds) the only reason for lower prices. I see only further legal battles with this issue with disruptions to cross border trade even further antagonizing markets.

Third - the last point on the list of conditions " The Administration must reach an agreement to re-establish beef and beef byproduct trade with Japan, South Korea and Mexico, and apply economic sanctions if necessary."
What does this "apply economic sanctions if necessary. " mean?

The USDA stamp and grade has me buffaloed - would require line segregation as well as seperate inspection, they can't just dump it in a box, no explanation of what this entails, other than to wait for them to implement COOL which would require their beef to be taceable .. not?

Is anyone interested in throwing some $ amounts in here for branding and spaying? Have never hired for either service so am just guessing: $5.00/hd to brand - spaying, have no idea. Kato, perhaps you can throw in a $ value here?
I see a potential market for a few steers but none for heifers...?

Canada already has the tag in place and we, as with many other producers can provide date of birth - "export papers" have been said to have a projected cost of $10.00/hd. Most of the trucking in my opinion has the least effect on cost, as to the fact that most cattle are trucked anyway - the difference would be added milage and the cost of the "sealed" unit.

I am confident that our firewalls, feedbans etc are (or will be with the complete removal of ruminent now on the table)above the specs the US is demanding. I also hope that Canadian buyers of US cattle are discretionary(sp) with their purchases as to Anap/blue tongue risks. Out of curiousity I'll look up Montana restrictions for cross border movement of cattle ... see what risks they avoid.

I would also like to see the same conditions (whatever they finally decide on) on cattle headed north.

Hats off to fellow Canadian producers and now I'm going to go smear a pound of butter on a (some) fresh from the oven cinnamon buns and then hope I'm crawling into PJs and not carhartts - nothing calving at the moment! LOL

[kpb]

the spaying of feedlot heifers is not totally unknown--it is generally done to get around the problem of cycling heifers in the feedlot and a subsequent drop in feedlot performance. However in this case I think it is a tempest in a teapot--it's unlikely that any feedlot is going to spay their heifers just to ship to the U.S., they'll simply ship the steers and beef the heifers at home. And, no, the heifers will not likely be discounted (if they are I'll be buying) they'll simply take the place in the domestic market formerly occupied by the steers that will go south when the border opens. Overall I think the American announcement is very positive and has nothing that we can't live with. To me it sounds like they are admitting that the border will open.