Cows are down again?!!!

[blackjack]

...cakadu...purposely no more than a trade restriction...it is there way of saying they don't want our cattle in their breeding herds...but they're willing to trade us ana and blue tongue which we all know are contagious...

[grassfarmer]

Cakadu, The danger is obvious on heifers - US ranchers or dealers will cheat the system and pull them out of the feedlot if there is a dollar to be made selling them as bred heifers. No different to the Alberta rogues that did the same thing with US heifers on feed prior to BSE. Unfortunately there are too many "cowboys" in the cattle business (pun intended) worldwide.

Willowcreek, it's funny you picked up that little tidbit from the UK news. That is the first such case in the 9 years of the passport system. You should be aware there is a hidden agenda there of running down the ag sector - this is just another case of the Government taking great joy in prosecuting one cheat and hinting the whole industry is cheating - it isn't. I could give you some stories of the passport agency persecuting farmers for cheating that were subsequently proven to be mistakes made by the agency.

The passport system is still light years ahead of the Canadian system and even further ahead of the (non-existant)US system.

[Willowcreek]

Grassfarmer- You said it about persons pulling out heifers-- If there is a buck to be made, someone will discover it and find the way around the system to do it. There are shady operaters on both sides of the border. I think what USDA and NCBA are looking at with the branding and spaying is removing some of the opportunities to do this..

Like I said earlier I personally don't think USDA will buy on to all these NCBA recommendations, but this is one they have already proposed. I think it and the no OTM cattle or beef will surely be enacted. The others I'm not sure about...NCBA has called on the USDA to quit using grade stamps on imported beef for years- but this time they went one step further and said no USDA markings at all which is essentially a form of COOL. That with the big push for MCOOL from R-CALF and the increasing request for it from consumer groups may slip that one thru Congress. With the health question tied to COOL it puts a lot more pressure on Congress to push it thru.. It will definitely be an interesting next month....There are a lot of poltical markers being called in, probably on both sides of the border..

[cakadu]

Okay, you've stated the obvious -- being that there would be cheats; however, you've also stated that it is in the few, not the many.

Who is supposed to pay for this spaying? Generally, the customer pays for what they want and if the rule comes back that they need to be spayed, it is coming at the request of the customer, is it not?

I'm going to get a little bold here and ask that whether these rules be an attempt at trade distortion or an attempt to circumvent cheats, what would happen if they were put into place?

Eventually, the U.S. is going to find and confirm one or more BSE cases. It's not a matter of if, it will be when they find one. The outcome of finding one (and others have suggested this too) is that the US will have painted themselves into a corner and it will come back and bite them - HARD.

Sad fact is we need them far more than they need us - for now.

[InAHurry]

Just wanted to ask some questions and give my limited opinion.

One, if heifers are spayed what is the concern over fetal bovine serum? With the ovaries removed estrous ceases, and the qualities/basic substance of the serum is no longer there. FBS is used as a culture base or have I misunderstood the realtionship between spaying and fetal bovine serum?

Two - " Movement of Canadian cattle into the United States must be managed to minimize market disruptions."
How is/what amount of consumer demand, supply, weather conditions, and operating costs etc will effect the US livestock markets. In other words Canadian imports will be the first (and in some minds) the only reason for lower prices. I see only further legal battles with this issue with disruptions to cross border trade even further antagonizing markets.

Third - the last point on the list of conditions " The Administration must reach an agreement to re-establish beef and beef byproduct trade with Japan, South Korea and Mexico, and apply economic sanctions if necessary."
What does this "apply economic sanctions if necessary. " mean?

The USDA stamp and grade has me buffaloed - would require line segregation as well as seperate inspection, they can't just dump it in a box, no explanation of what this entails, other than to wait for them to implement COOL which would require their beef to be taceable .. not?

Is anyone interested in throwing some $ amounts in here for branding and spaying? Have never hired for either service so am just guessing: $5.00/hd to brand - spaying, have no idea. Kato, perhaps you can throw in a $ value here?
I see a potential market for a few steers but none for heifers...?

Canada already has the tag in place and we, as with many other producers can provide date of birth - "export papers" have been said to have a projected cost of $10.00/hd. Most of the trucking in my opinion has the least effect on cost, as to the fact that most cattle are trucked anyway - the difference would be added milage and the cost of the "sealed" unit.

I am confident that our firewalls, feedbans etc are (or will be with the complete removal of ruminent now on the table)above the specs the US is demanding. I also hope that Canadian buyers of US cattle are discretionary(sp) with their purchases as to Anap/blue tongue risks. Out of curiousity I'll look up Montana restrictions for cross border movement of cattle ... see what risks they avoid.

I would also like to see the same conditions (whatever they finally decide on) on cattle headed north.

Hats off to fellow Canadian producers and now I'm going to go smear a pound of butter on a (some) fresh from the oven cinnamon buns and then hope I'm crawling into PJs and not carhartts - nothing calving at the moment! LOL

[kpb]

the spaying of feedlot heifers is not totally unknown--it is generally done to get around the problem of cycling heifers in the feedlot and a subsequent drop in feedlot performance. However in this case I think it is a tempest in a teapot--it's unlikely that any feedlot is going to spay their heifers just to ship to the U.S., they'll simply ship the steers and beef the heifers at home. And, no, the heifers will not likely be discounted (if they are I'll be buying) they'll simply take the place in the domestic market formerly occupied by the steers that will go south when the border opens. Overall I think the American announcement is very positive and has nothing that we can't live with. To me it sounds like they are admitting that the border will open.

[cowman]

I believe if the US requires all heifers to be spayed then it should follow that Canada would also require all US heifers entering Canada should be spayed? I wonder how that rule would work with purebred breeding stock? Or show cattle moving back and forth across the border? Or dairy heifers moving south?
I would think if the US demands all these things then it would not be unreasonable that Canada demands them also?
The point here is if we both implement a bunch of stupid rules, that have absolutely nothing to do with food safety, then what have we accomplished? Is this really going to enhance trade and goodwill among our countries? Or in fact is it nothing more than trade barriers to restrict commerce and lower profits for everyone?
Fortunately, the powers that be understand that integrated trade produces more wealth for everyone and looks at that as a benifit for the American economy. The American farmer and rancher needs to realize they are a tiny part of a US economy and that they are expendable in the big picture?...as is the Canadian rancher/farmer?
Quite frankly if I lived in Toronto or New York I really couldn't care less if my beef came from Kansas or South America, as long as it was safe and tasty! And also why would I care about a farmer getting high prices and subsidies? Do the people of America or Canada really need farmers if they can buy their food cheaper somewhere else?

[grassfarmer]

I think there is a lot of posturing going on here - US ranchers stating what they would like to see happening so it doesn't disrupt their market too much. Reality is the border will open because the US domestic packers want access to more Canadian cattle - they are driving the train as they do in Canada, ranchers(and politicians to an extent) are merely passengers.

[blackjack]

kgb... I agree it will mainly just be steers headed south...but don't you feel the americans making this a food safety message a little overboard...there is so many costs associated with this proposal...that it will reflect on keeping feeder prices down... my opinion

[kpb]

i agree with grassfarmer that, as usual, the packers are driving the train and we (producers) are the passengers. cowman's assertion that Canada should have the same rules regarding the importing of American cattle is interesting but, to my mind, not going to happen. The plain fact is one that I've been saying for six months--we need the American market, they do not need us, at least to the same extent that we need them. So the Americans call the tune regarding the rules to open the market, whether we like it or not. So I don't expect there will be similar rules in place regarding the importation of American cattle.
As far as spaying heifers is concerned, I suppose this will affect our purebred sales down south but I don't believe it will affect feeder prices here. However I do agree with Blackjack that all these rules will, without doubt, keep a ceiling on our feeder prices. The basis before the border opened was generally around 8 to 12 cents. I expect that the work regarding the rules and, more important, the new realization that we could lose the U.S. market again if a lot of BSE started showing up, will widen the basis to, maybe, 12 cents to 17 cents. Even so the argument could be made that feeders should trade up another 10 to 15 cents in Canada as the border opening date gets closer (given current U.S. prices).

[InAHurry]

Oldtimer (Willowcreek)
"Just because Canada had to run their beef products thru the US to sell them..."
You have made several references of the same, here and on other boards. One thought that comes to my mind is that the US BOUGHT the Canadian beef/cattle as they (US boxed beef inventory) could not domestically supply the quality for a particular beef sale.

[Willowcreek]

INAHURRY-- You are right that the US packers bought the Canadian cattle and beef- but then they cut off the Canadian markings and put a USDA stamp on it and passed it off to all consumers- US and foreign as a US product........Canada has totally lost the identity of their product.. I often see posts on here about "when we get our packing plants open people will be yelling to get good Canadian beef again"--and it makes me laugh... What Canadian beef? Most people have no idea they have ever ate Canadian beef... It had a USDA stamp on it so it had to be US beef- if you asked most US consumers they would tell you they've never eaten Canadian beef.......
And that becomes one of the concerns with the Canadian BSE problem- as more and more consumers ask questions and become knowledgeable -that the mixing of the Canadian product with the US beef may cause a lack of consumer confidence and demand-- especially since their is no way for them to tell which is which and make the choice themselves.....