Different world or is it?

[grassfarmer]

I was just reading an article by a friend of mine in Scotland of the uncertainty facing beef producers there. The EU is changing (and substantially reducing, in theory)the subsidies paid to producer.
Recently a beef cow has been earning an annual total of @$770 subsidy. Farmers are getting @$200/cwt deadweight for fat cattle but claim they will need $250/cwt to survive post subsidy reduction.
Before you all shout these are outrageous figures and we would all be rich if we got that much, think of all the programs we have had in the last year. The $80 a head payment last spring, another $80 if you used the setaside program and then of course CAIS. My accountant believes I will get around $150 a cow from it but I'll believe that when I see it.
It seems to be the way agriculture is moving in developed countries. Farmers on welfare because people further up the production chain are getting away with value theft.
Perhaps some of our American contributers could fill us in on the details of their welfare payments?

[SASH]

I thought this was a particularly good article that compares farming to most other businesses. This quote

'But what about businesses that have been in operation for a long time? Research at the University of Wisconsin's Family Business Center shows that approximately 70 percent of all family businesses fail to succeed to the second generation and almost 90 percent fail to survive to the third.'

I thought was particularly valid. Even though it seems that family farms are dropping like flies, maybe its possible that its like that in every industry.

[intr3est]

I wonder how much farmers would be in the red if they valued their time. I deal with a lot of farmers and I don't know of many that pay themselves, it's all for the equity. And that has sure been decreased in the last 2 years. Take a look at how much is put into retirement from the employer of these city people. What retirement fund does a farmer have, equity. It's a fine line between calling ranching a lifestyle and a business, but what the people in urban surrondings forget is that it is a necessity and not a luxury. Why do they work two jobs and 60 hours, they need that third tv or an MP player. I agree that it is too often the doom and gloom that gets reported instead of the importance of this business/lifestyle we are involved in. I'm not a farmer, I'm in sales, and I do see the doom and gloom, I feel for you guys out there. It's hard going in one laneway and then the next asking for money that I know you need to spend to get ahead, but also need to feed the family.

[intr3est]

I have an uncle that farms in Quebec, and I don't like to admit it, but the government looks after farmers there. And we can argue that the rest of Canada pays for their programs, but at least they put their money into essentials, like food. But they also do it in a sensible manner. Anyway, I think it would be a good model for the rest of the country.

[SASH]

I've heard it said alot of times that it seems that farmers are asset rich but cash poor. Their farm is basically their RRSP but they have to sell it to get the money out of it. One guy I know is big into this 'Ranching for Profit' course they offer. Next thing I know, he had an auction and put his land up for sale. Maybe that's the only way a guy can make money on this deal. My Dad had a pretty good grain farm. He sold it off in 1999 and went into cattle farming with my brother. He was set to retire when he sold. Not any more. Its just a nasty situation for guys like that.

[intr3est]

Yep, I guess if your paying the bills, you're getting ahead, but it doesn't leave much to leave to the kids if you need the equity to live off during retirement.

[Cedar]

Sash:

"If you had two kids that needed help from time to time, and one whined continually about how tough his life was and the other said he was doing OK, but came to you for help when he hit a circumstance that was beyond his ability to handle, which would you be most likely to help?"

Hmmm....seems the appropriate response here would be obviously to help the one that doesn't do too much whining....well, then....can someone please explain why Quebec gets all the help and the rest of us get next to nothing, even when dire straits type situations hit us upside the head?

[Cedar]

WOW! Grassfarmer, with "wages" like that over there, I can't even imagine why you would ever move here, maybe I should look into moving over there!!! Good grief, looks like I could make a living just off of the annual cow subsidies, never mind selling the calves or fats!
As for your comments regard $80 plus $80 plus CAIS....what's that supposed to be...some sort of joke...hmmmm, not funny! I mean, it's certainly better than nothing, but we're lucky if these little cheques get us through one more month!

"It seems to be the way agriculture is moving in developed countries. Farmers on welfare because people further up the production chain are getting away with value theft."

Exactly the problem, I would suspect all over the world as the u.s. (and other) megacorps "spread their wings"! Unfortunately, the end result appears to be that the consumer/taxpayer gets "double-whammied" as they pay for their food, at inflated cost, plus tax dollars go to support the primary production aspect...not fair!... and all this just so the "big boys" can get "fatter"!!! I don't understand this world anymore, it's getting too weird!!!

[SASH]

I agree. Those Quebec farmers are awfully militant. I saw a farm show this weekend about how the Quebec farmers want to partner with all of the middlemen from pasture to plate to make sure that the farmers are making money on slaughtering and distribution as well as the production aspect. As much as I dislike the tactics in Quebec, I have to agree that they've got the right idea on how to keep the profit in the producers hands.

[SASH]

I am not aware of what industry groups are in Quebec. Do they have a counterpart to ABP ? If so, how involved are they in any of the ativities you have described ?

[grassfarmer]

Cedar, the point I was making is that people are not getting rich over there. It sounds like a lot of income but factor in pasture land at $2000-$3000 an acre, staw at $100 tonne every year, gas at over $2 a litre and you would find it no easier to make money in Europe. Plus European governments feel there is no place for agriculture in Europe - too many smells and inconveniences for the urban populations. We are now hitting a generation of Europeans that are prepared to put the hard lessons of WW2 hunger behind them and resort to importing everything.
I wasn't kidding about the payments we have had in Canada - i'm embarassed to get over $300 a cow subsidy in Canada - I came here for the freedom to get awy from that system. I always try to fight to get our fair returns from the marketplace - there is plenty money there if it wasn't being stolen by the transnational corporations.

[greybeard]

Grassfarmer; "there is plenty money there if it wasn't being stolen by the transnational corporations".
My thoughts exactly. We have to get more involved up the chain.
European farmers looked to me to be in bigger trouble than we are. All they can do is coast along hoping for bigger subsidies, and keep working at the job in town. Their future is determined by politicians.
I wouldn’t trade them, even with what we have been through Just pay me what its worth

[grassfarmer]

How to achieve it is the difficult part greybeard.
This working in town deal is a big eye opener to me - 10 or 15 years ago very few people in UK agriculture worked off farm - a few wives and some men doing custom work. I was amazed coming to Alberta that a huge percentage of farm wives work and the husbands too in some cases. I wouldn't have believed that a province with an ag economy like Alberta had so many part time farmers. Sadly more and more in the UK are working off farm - given that we are the creators of most of the real wealth in society - yet the ones that get bye retailing, repairing, moving money around, creating mindless beurocracy all have safe, full time, well paying jobs. It's a crazy old world.

[kato]

I'm not so sure I'd call it part time farming. More like full time farming with a full time job to boot.

We're turning into a 'least cost' world. The big international corporations just travel around the globe looking for the 'least cost' products to sell. If the raw material is cheaper in one country, that's where they go. Once the economy develops there to where it's not so cheap any more, they move on. Kind of a slash and burn approach to business. There's always a new place to move to, and don't worry about what you left behind. In a few years the 'left behind' areas will have diminished to least cost status again and you can go back there again.

It's not a good world to be a primary producer in. When lower costs get handed down, they stop at the bottom. That would be us.

Our challenge is to figure out a way to get ourselves off the bottom of the food chain. I think the last two years have given us plenty of incentive to get working on it, and I hope we can succeed.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: Don't be embarassed to be getting $300 per cow(somehow I missed getting that much)! Hey you weren't the idiot who decided the food safety rules, right? I doubt whether you hauled out some old downer to feed to your cows?
The whole deal here is we shouldn't think we have a "duty" to be the low man on the totem pole? We should be saying "Hey how come our government isn't supporting us like they do in Europe?" We don't need to compete with all the slaves in the rest of the world? We are supposed to be a wealthy industrial country, right? At least they keep telling us that...?
If our useless bums in Ottawa had stepped up to the plate and fought the grain wars, we wouldn't be in the pickle we find ourselves today? Sluff it off, and pick the cheap solution to the farm problem...typical Ottawa solution? Let Europe and America have the grain business. Not too smart?
If we had a government that wasn't such a bunch of scoundrels maybe we might have some money to play the game?