Interesting bull

[grassfarmer]

What do you think of this Angus bull shown in Stockman Grassfarmer? NewZealand grass bred genetics, weighed 2630lbs off pasture as a 7 year old with a 5.1 frame score. Picture available at www.sustainablegenetics.com
(bull is Pinebank Waigroup 41/97.)

cswilson is this the kind of bull you would use?

[cswilson]

I've got a red angus bull from dylan biggs looks just like him were going to collect-he's coming ten and can winter on snowballs and promises. I've used some new zealand cattle before.I don't think I'd use anything smaller than that though-I've got a real good thick three year old black bull I bought from Murray Fraser is looking good-we bred 100 heifers to him as a yearling and he worked great. He was wintered on 5lb of screening pellets and and triple a marbled at 5 ml of backfat-looking forward to his daughters. You should go to murray's sale if you are looking for some Angus that are run right. That bull in grassfarmer would sure put some guts in some of those EXT and new design bred ballerinas.

[PureCountry]

Do you guys get the same giggle out of the ABS, Semex, IBS sire directories that I do? They're plum full of crappy looking cattle that people buy just for the numbers. I think alot of these EPD categories have gone a little too far, and I personally don't pay too much attention to them.

I say buy them off the farm, look at his dam, sire, daughters, brothers and go from there. If you see a consistent pattern in the genepool, you can expect it in your calf crop; as long as it's a purebred bull, ha, ha.

Oh, and if the breeder can't show you the dam and daughters at least, get back in your truck and go find someone who can. These large-scale sales where you're buying a bull just on how he looks as he comes in the ring for his 30 TO 60 SECONDS of glory, is a damn CRIME, especially when they're 50% of this, or 33% of that. Somedays I wish every breed still registered with the CLRC, and a committee had been developed to keep BREEDERS BREEDING BREEDS, instead of FOOLS FEEDING FADS.

But of course, politics would probably end up corrupting that, too.

[PureCountry]

And another thing to keep in mind, how many of you saw the article on the "Shark Cage" the Soderglen boys developed? It was in Cattleman magazine a couple years back. Any operation that has enough man-eaters in their herd to justify a shark cage, is not one that should be pumping the industry full of those genetics.

I like an instinctual mother and have no time for showring pets, but the cows I keep around will chase off coyotes, dogs, other cows or whatever, and still let me straddle the calf to tag and such. If they don't, I never keep a daughter out of them, and they're gone at the first opportunity.

But again, those are the kinds of things you CANNOT SEE, in the sale ring.

[smcgrath76]

Interesting discussion for someone in my lines of work. I am a numbers guy, but we also know what we are trying to accomplish with our program when we look at the numbers. I did look up the EBV profile on this sire and he is pretty reasonable.
Above average CE and growth to 400 days, smaller than average mature size, and thank god he has only got average milk.
We often use the Australian ABRI website to select sires, or sires to select sons from as they provide us with more information that we need to make good decisions. Things like mature size and carcass characteristics.
We also like to look at a bull and his mother before buying (not always possible with AI).
I agree that if you do not have a goal, and are only trying to breed bigger numbers, then numbers do not work. If you know what you are trying to accomplish first, then they are a pretty good tool.

[grassfarmer]

cs, I wasn't really looking to use the bull - just thought he might raise some discussion as he looks very different from some of the ones in the semen catalogues as purecountry says. I sometimes wonder if some of them were bred by frustrated giraffe breeders? The NZ bull struck me as being a huge weight for a grass developed animal and leads me to wonder what size his progency would be by the time they had enough marbling to kill well?

Purecountry, as far as the shark cage goes I think Soderglen maybe made a marketing mistake there. The conclusion drawn by many is that their cattle are wild. Without venturing an opinion on that topic I would say the shark cage is a practical idea that will enhance the safety of handling young calves. Bear in mind many commercial herds run bought in cows that are raised to someone elses standards. Add in the fact that if you are employing men to work with newborn calves there could be liability issues if an accident happened.
I know some guys in the UK used similar home made contraptions - they were all big cow numbers, low worker number outfits. There was also a worker killed on a farm there tagging a new calf, another drawback to a compulsory tagging system where they had to be tagged and registered by 7 days old.

[gwf]

This is a little off the topic, but the mention of ‘Shark Cages” caught my interest. We built our own little trailers a few years ago that resemble these cages, but are a little different in that the cage part folds up over the small pen that is on two wheels making it a lot narrower and easier to get through narrow gates and into the barn etc. It also tracks easier in deep snow. We calve about 1000 plus cows and have two of these little contraptions that we pull with JD Gators. A larger quad would do the job, but when the snow or mud gets a little deep, you need the extra power and with two seats on the Gator, two people are more efficient. Sometimes the quiet old girls have a change in disposition and to me there is no question the job can be done very much safer.

We have two fields for each herd, one for un-calved mothers and next door one for the new mothers and their babies. First thing in the morning, we take a tour through the cows and record all the newborns, write the mother tag numbers down in our calving book and make out the tags that will be put in the calves. Calves get a metal tag, a plastic tag with the mothers tag number, scour guard and half c.c. of Selenium. If the cow and calf are near the gate to the next pasture, we catch them to tag etc. and walk them to the gate. If they are a ways away, after they are caught in the mobile pen, we put them in the little cage and take them to the gate and let them go. Separating the cows that have calved makes the checking for new ones is so much easier and less time required.

The cage being narrow allows us to take the calf, and the mother usually follows to the barns if the calf needs some special treatment or care.

If you have ever been rolled around by a cow with a new calf, you will appreciate the safety that the cage affords you. After all the calf has to be tagged and it makes it a joy to be out doing this job and not having to worry about being a victim of natures instincts.

I really think every one that is in the calving business should have one for their own safety and piece of mind.

[cswilson]

Grassfarmer it would be interesting to see how long that bull took to get to that weight.When I calve on the grass-they don't make a quad fast enough to get the cage over the calf lol. I usually just fish a loop on them off a horse then tie them with a pigging string-the cows checks them out while i make the tag up. I admit I have the odd stand off lol.

[grassfarmer]

I've never owned a quad bike or gator but isn't there the possibility of an angry cow wanting to jump aboard while you are hauling her calf around in a wagon behind the quad? A friend of mine in Scotland had a limo steer go crazy with him on pasture. He got worse and worse over several weeks and eventually used to "hunt" the man on the quad whenever he entered the field. They couldn't get him out of the pasture come fall but he got hungry enough in December to hop the fence in with some dairy replacements and finally got captured. I'd have shot him - life's too short.

[grassfarmer]

I raise limos but the meanest critter that has ever been on this place was a chi/char cross years ago. She would have killed anyone that got near her calf. I happened to be manning the sorting gate one fall, and she ended up in the load out pen and gone before anyone else around here had much input !!!

[PureCountry]

I guess that's what you'd call a wise management decision emrald1. I know when we used our JD Gator for tagging, you'd get into a ring-around-the-rosie with some cows chasin' ya, and some would climb into the back while following the calf bawling on the tailgate. That gets your heart goin' when your all of a sudden on your back and your view of the clouds is blocked with the cow staring down through the steering wheel.

Lots of these things - quads, gators, cages, etc. - can be handy. My point was that you shouldn't need to fight off that type of cow. Coming up with ways to deal with them to convince yourself it's not a chore, is like taking a gun from a killer and saying it's OK to let them out on the street. Maybe you've taken a bit of the danger away, but they're still there.

So it goes with cows like that. If they're that snuffy, I get rid of them. No questions asked. I've been rolled by enough of them to know that you won't always be going through the herd and have the luxury of your quad or cage around.

[ALICIA]

But is it just me or do that kind seem the raise the bigest calf.

[ALICIA]

ALICIA, they ALWAYS raise the best calf, and in my case, the calves have always been easy to handle and the daughters of the snotty cows have never been nasty like their mothers.
I bring my cows into the corrals to calve and have steel pens so 2 7/8" pipe between me and a snotty old mama is always nice to have. I only have a couple of the snotty ones left, the rest of them aren't bad. I always like it when the snotty ones calve first and I can get them turned out.
The funniest thing I have ever seen is one of them losing a battle with a 300 pound miniature donkey a couple of years ago. She was only a day or so away from calving and I put her in a pen with the donkeys while I put fresh bedding out, she took a run at the donkey and got a pair of tiny hooves right between the eyes. That changed her attitude !!!!

[ALICIA]

I bet that did. I can picture it.

[ALICIA]

The donkeys are my THERAPY here ! I bought one to keep the calves company when I weaned them and bought a second one to keep the first one company in the summer .
Spent $1800 getting a rail fence built around an ugly corner of the farmstead for a donkey paddock...
My kids thought I had completely lost my marbles....and was spending their inheritance as well !!!

I have kept the donkeys with the heifer calves for the past three winters, penning the donkeys up when I feed the heifers grain, and the rest of the time they are together. The donkeys rule the roost from day one....but the heifers are tame and follow the donkeys around wherever they go.
My two year old heifers are as tame as they were when they were calves....so my experiment with the donkeys was worth it....but my kids still think I am nuts !!! Oh well, what do they know ???